Author Topic: Clove X adjustable loop  (Read 3184 times)

xarax

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Clove X adjustable loop
« on: June 07, 2015, 01:44:10 PM »
   I think it would be better to abandon the name "overhand-knot-based adjustable loop" ( which describes the topology only, and not the geometry of the knot, and which corresponds to more than one particular loops ), and to use the name Clove X adjustable loop instead. There is still another "historical"  :) reason for this : I had tied this loop when I saw that the Clove hitch-based adjustable loop - even the "correctly" tied one ( the wrongly tied, shown in The Knot Bible   :) :) is much more unstable (2)) - under heavy loading, can capsize into a differently - shaped / looking knot (1). So, I had thought of the Clove X structure, which could retain the tight, almost jamming nip/grip of a Clove hitch tied around a compressible material, while improving its balance, as a mid-air knot, at the same time.
   Besides this most simple Clove X adjustable loop, there are also the many double-overhand-knot based adjustable loops (3), which are even more stable as mid-air knots, but which are more convoluted / interweaved - and so they run the danger to be less tight / effective in their nipping/gripping action on the penetrating returning eyeleg, because some portion of the tensile forces induced into the nub is "wasted" in generating friction at points where it is not required. The simpler one is shown at (4). There is a reason I had made the returning eyeleg exit from a point in between the two wraps/rims of the double overhand knot : If I had not, the tip of the L-shaped "handle" of the returning eyeleg could pass "under" the nub s first curve, and this would had changed the topology and the geometry of the knot, and deteriorate its nipping / gripping power.
   
   And this is an important point in knotting, which some unexperienced knot tyers often miss : When, during the tying, the dressing or the tensioning stage, the movement of a segment of a knot a few millimetres "up" or "down" from the precise path it has to follow, can change the geometry and/or the topology of a knot, this knot is unacceptable as a practical knot. It is a "flimsy" knot, and it should be avoided. In this particular case, if we make the returning eyeleg penetrate the two wraps of the double overhand knot from the one side to the other, without the trick I had used, and if then the knot will be heavily loaded, the segment of the returning eyeleg inside the nub, and the segment of the double overhand knot which connects its two wraps, will be in an mutually unstable position. During tying or dressing, but also later, during the shrinking of the surrounding nub, the one segment can go "over" or "under" the other, and the knot can pass from its optimum shape, regarding its nipping / gripping power, to a significantly deteriorated one.
   I have not yet made up my mind about which of the two adjustable loops, the Clove X based one, or the double overhand knot based one ( I have no better term, able to describe the geometry of its nub...), is preferable. The simplicity of the former is seductive, and tae stability of the later is attractive, and I do not believe that there would be a major difference in their nipping / gripping efficiencies...
   I am thinking of replacing, in my personal "Pantheon" of "new" knots, the Helical adjustable loop (5), with one of those two loops - because they are more tight, and because they belong to the "tie-and-forget" kind of knots : on the contrary, the nipping / gripping power of the Helical adjustable loop depends on how tightly its nub will be set by the knot tyer in the first place - and this requires an amount of attention from the knot tyer, during its dressing, which diminishes the advantage of its simplicity, during its tying !       

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4463.msg31699#msg31699
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17841#msg17841
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5322.msg35761#msg35761
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4965.msg33791#msg33791
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 01:50:02 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Luca

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Re: Clove X adjustable loop
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2015, 03:13:36 AM »
Hi xarax,

I liked the idea,but I think that also this knot requires care during dressing/setting/manual tightening(to make sure that the knot's nub does not degenerate into a normally shaped Overhand knot);but the biggest problem seems to be that this "Clove-shaped" Overhand in the standing part jams even after the knot has been loaded in a light way(and at the minimum the eye is no longer adjustable..).

                                                                                                                                                  Bye!

xarax

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Re: Clove X adjustable loop
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2015, 09:54:17 AM »
   1. this knot requires care during dressing/setting/manual tightening(to make sure that the knot's nub does not degenerate into a normally shaped Overhand knot);
   2. this "Clove-shaped" Overhand in the standing part jams even after the knot has been loaded

1. True : what you have to do, is to tighten the Clove X hitch around the returning eyeleg BEFORE you even start pulling the Standing End. When the nub becomes tight enough, then it will not return to a simple overhand knot shape. I have tried this with dozens of different materials, and it works.

2. True : THAT is what it should meant to do ! Nip / grip the penetrating eye leg in the extreme, even if it almost jams ( as all "Jam knots" do ). Now, as I have said, there are no too tight nubs, there are only nubs which do not allow us to loosen and untie them - because they do not offer "handles" by which we can grab and pull a bight out of the nub, etc. This nub is not like this, for TWO reasons : First, the rim of the Clove X hitch ( its riding turn ) is very long, it runs along a very extended arc around it, so it offers plenty of room to grab it, push it, translate it sideways, etc, in order to loosen it. Second, I believe you have not discovered the trick  :) : PUSH the ends of the nub : you will see that one of them will retreat, and feed material into the knot, and loosen it.
   When you can not pull, push !  :)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 01:47:23 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Clove X adjustable loop
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2015, 05:24:43 PM »
   Try this method of dressing it : After you have formed it, grab the two eyelegs with your left hand, and pull the Standing End with your right hand. The Clove X hitch will remain in place : it will not rotate, and it will not degenerate into the common form of the overhand knot. It will just shrink, and start squeezing the penetrating line.
   Of course, this is NOT a self-dressing knot ! It requires some attention from the knot user, perhaps as much as the Pretzel loop ( although the Pretzel loop is TIB, and such an attention should be expected there, for simple TIB loops tied in mid air ). However, I believe that its almost maximum simplicity, combined with its good balance and very tight grip, is worth the additional effort during its dressing.
   If you want a really self-dressing adjustable loop, but just a little bit more convoluted, you can use the double-overhand knot based one, which is also more stable in its position on mid air.
   Recently, Luca and Alan Lee had tied some other secure adjustable loops. See :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5383.msg36215#msg36215
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5383.msg36262#msg36262
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5383.msg36474#msg36474

« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 03:11:53 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: Clove X adjustable loop
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2015, 08:33:43 PM »
What happened to your hand!?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:37:26 PM by alpineer »

xarax

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Re: Clove X adjustable loop
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2015, 09:36:58 PM »
   I shook hands with a matter-made-guy, and it was annihilated... :) :)
   
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: Clove X adjustable loop
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 10:41:30 PM »
   I shook hands with a matter-made-guy, and it was annihilated... :) :)
   

Good answer. Quite the creative use of a glove, I must say. :)

xarax

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Re: Clove X adjustable loop
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 11:46:10 PM »
   If I had used a boxing glove ( as I should...  :) :) ), I would had annihilated the other guy, not my own hand !
This is not a knot.