Author Topic: Which knots to know?  (Read 36504 times)

erizo1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2013, 12:39:50 PM »
[/b]I was torn between the Reef and the Gleipnir.  It was a compromise.  The mid-air capability of the Gleipnir is quite valuable, but I can use the Blake Hitch listed below as a mid-air binder.

the Blake's hitch as a binding knot (tie it to the other end of the same rope and cinch it around an object). Again, two for one.

!   :)  I have never thought this use of a climbing friction hitch ! That is the good thing with this game, it makes you think how to get " two for one". 

I should give credit for this to knot4u. He mentioned this much earlier in this thread when he gave his list of five, and that was actually the reason for my learning Blake's hitch in the first place. I agree, a terrific use of a climbing friction knot. I've tied it this way in several different kinds of rope, and once you dress it tight, it's not going anywhere.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 12:55:43 PM by erizo1 »

erizo1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2013, 12:55:16 PM »

if you learn to tie a zeppelin loop, you can use the exact same method to tie the zeppelin bend.

   If somebody does not know how to tie the Zeppelin bend, you suggest to learn the fake so called "Zepelin loop" so he "can use the exact same method to tie the Zeppelin bend" ?  :) :) :)  Thank you, erizo, that was a funny thing about this lamentable ugly tangly that I would nt expect one could have thought of !

It's interesting, the first way I learned to tie the zeppelin bend was the overhand knot followed by working the end of the other line through it (the way the loop is tied), which if you're just learning the bend is unnecessarily complicated compared to the "b and q" method. But having learned it that way, when I wanted to learn to tie the loop, there was nothing new to learn, aside from using the working end of the same line to finish the knot instead of another line.

For my purely practical purposes, the zeppelin loop's fakeness, lamentableness, and ugliness don't really enter into it. It's a very secure loop that can be tied by a method that's also used for a very secure bend, which to me makes it worth learning. Liabilities like not being post-eye-tieable are less important to me than security, although of course other people's calculus when choosing just one or two loops may be different.

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2013, 02:17:39 PM »
the zeppelin loop's fake-ness,
...regarding the Zeppelin bend. If you learn how the Zeppelin bend works, you will understand that the "fake-ness" of the so-called "Zeppelin loop" - and you will find hard to justify utilizing the Zeppelin bend as a base for your loop, and not any other bend, which is not a rope-made hitch, as the Zeppelin bend is - i.e, any bend of the dozens of dozens bends we have, where the standing parts form first curves which are "hooked" around each other. You can start by trying the dozens of Hunter s bend and falsely-tied Hunter s bend based loops, for example  !  :)  If you find ANY difference in security, between the fake so-called "Zeppelin loop" and all those bends, I swear I will be tying the ugly tugly for the rest of my life !  So, the "security" of a loop based on a bend can not be a reason for choosing this particular bend and not any other... The Zeppelin bend, as a mechanism, has something different from most of the bends we know, and when you throw this  away, you throw away its best part - and you keep the insignificant remaining "commodity", the interlinked nature of the two overhand knots, which you can find in so many other bends.
the zeppelin loop's ...lamentableness
  If the Zeppelin bend is able to make you happy, the fake, so called "Zeppelin loop" will make you cry, believe me...Yes, a Ferrari has four wheels, as any other car  if you are interested only to use it as four-wheeled trolley, your Ferrari has become lamentable...Using the Zeppelin bend ( and not any other bend ) for its two interlinked overhand knots, you do exactly the same thing... :)
the zeppelin loop's... ugliness
   Oh, that belongs to the eye of the beholder !  :)  I believe that nature offered us a great gift, with the beauty of the Zeppelin bend - if one can not appreciate that, the difference between any beauty and any beast disappears, indeed. Perhaps the world would have been a more fair place if there were not an beautiful things around ?
Liabilities like not being post-eye-tieable are less important to me than security
   I have tried to tell you that the ability tie be able to tie and/ot untie an end-of-line eyeknot in one stage ( without any pre-knot that has to be tied and then has to be untied again on the standing part, i.e. without a "relic" overhand knot remaining tied on the standing part after the main loop has been opened up and the line had been freed to move ) enhances security, in the broadest sense of the word. Evidently, I have failed -  but that would not be my first time !  :)  We,knot tyers, we are conservative, and, I would dare to say, frightened people, by the apparently vast complexity of the KnotLand s landscape, that our brains can not conceive, just because human brain did not evolve to grasp complex curvilinear 1D lines in a 3D space...We can not easily learn new knots, or even new things about the knots we already know !  When you will learn the Zeppelin bend, as a rope-made hinge mechanism, and the big, HUGE difference in convenience but also in security, in a broad sense, between the post-eye-tiable eyeknots and all the rest, I will come back !   :)  Till then, there are plenty of "easy" web sites, advertising your beloved ugly tugly. It has almost become a fashion, because, if you follow the fashion, whatever fashion, you are not supposed to explain why you wear this instead of that. A loop based on the Zeppelin bend, you said ? Ouaou ! It should be a great loop, let me wear this around my neck, like just another happy proud fashion victim. 
 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:05:07 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2013, 03:45:53 PM »
a terrific use of a climbing friction knot.
  Perhaps you or knot4u should start a new thread, about hitches around poles based on climbing friction hitches, like the one you mention.
  The drawback I see is this : the climbing friction hitches are not meant to distort the straightness of the main line in any significant way. On the other hand, many "ordinary" hitches induce a local deformation of the main line, a shallower or deeper curve (  pull the returning line of the "Buntline extinguisher" we were talking about, to see this effect ), or even entangle it within the initially sliding part of the hitch ( as it happens in the arthroscopic slide-and-grip lockable hitches ). This Is a great advantage, because, on a local "bump" of the main line, acting as obstacle, the whole sliding part and the returning leg of the main line can be attached "easier", with greater security.

Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2013, 07:11:56 PM »
you have 2 loops, one end-of-line and one mid-line... You can merge the two to one, that is even more secure than the bowline, and can also be tied in the bight ( be TIB) .
   The Buntline is OK, but it is not so unique and indispensable, as many knot tyers believe... See a similar one, at the attached picture.

What is the knot you refer to that is even more secure than the bowline?

I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).

Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2013, 07:19:12 PM »


  • Drop the slipped buntline. It does the same job as the round turn and two half-hitches, and it's more secure, but the latter is more versatile. If you want extra security, you can tie a secure loop around the object.
  • Drop the Bowline. What you're talking about is applications involving heavy loads and possibly the need for maximum security, so I would choose a loop that will do these jobs well, even if it's overkill for other things.
  • Learn the zeppelin loop, for two reasons. First, it's a maximum security loop, much better than the bowline, especially for a rescue situation, and is fine for just about any other use. Second, if you learn to tie a zeppelin loop, you can use the exact same method to tie the zeppelin bend. You don't have to learn any new movements, just be working with a second line rather than the looped working end of the same line. Two for one; not sure if this is cheating, but you're the one making the rules, so count it however you want :-)
  • You don't have a knot on there that will help you get really good tension in a rope you're using to tie something down. Add either a trucker's hitch or the kind of hitch that can be tied back onto the same line to create an adjustable loop (Blake's is my preference, also adjustable grip, tautline).
  • You need a binding knot IMO. I think the need to tie things in a bundle or cinch down a line running over a pile of stuff is common enough to warrant a knot in your list of five. I think a reef or Gleipnir would be best for a variety of situations, but you could economize by using the tension knot you pick above (e.g., Blake's hitch) as a binding knot (tie it to the other end of the same rope and cinch it around an object). Again, two for one.

So here's my suggested list. Of course, if you have those five down so you can tie them with your eyes closed, you're more than ready to expand your list:

1.  Round turn and two half-hitches

2.  Alpine butterfly

3.  Zeppelin loop / bend using the same tying method (cheating?)

4.  Blake's hitch

5.  Reef knot


Would the Zeppelin Loop be a good knot for towing a vehicle?

With reference to the trucker's hitch, I would incorporate 3 of the 5 knots into tying down a load - slipped buntline for the anchor, alpine butterfly for the mid line loop and finish off with the RT & 2 HH's.

Is the reef knot a neccessary knot to include?

roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2013, 07:33:19 PM »
I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
As people have probably figured out by now, Mr. X's buntline replacement tends to jam, and doesn't lend itself to slipped release as readily and freely as the Slipped Buntline family.

If you're looking for a non-slipped hitch for tie-downs, just about any common hitch will do as high security isn't much of a concern with constant tension use.  A simple Timber Hitch would do.  A Gnat Hitch is simple, jam-resistant, highly secure and isn't affected by unusual hitch object shapes.
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Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2013, 07:44:06 PM »
I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
As people have probably figured out by now, Mr. X's buntline replacement tends to jam, and doesn't lend itself to slipped release as readily and freely as the Slipped Buntline family.

If you're looking for a non-slipped hitch for tie-downs, just about any common hitch will do as high security isn't much of a concern with constant tension use.  A simple Timber Hitch would do.  A Gnat Hitch is simple, jam-resistant, highly secure and isn't affected by unusual hitch object shapes.

The Gnat hitch is an ideal knot for me, it's so easy to tie. Does it need to be slipped like the Buntline for ease of untying?

roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2013, 07:46:34 PM »
Would the Zeppelin Loop be a good knot for towing a vehicle?
[...]
Is the reef knot a neccessary knot to include?
I don't know how often the reef knot will come up for you, but I get the feeling that you know it already.   ;)

A Zeppelin Loop could be used as a vehicle recovery loop as it doesn't jam, is a pleasure to adjust component lengths, and can easily be verified for correctness by a quick glance.  That's not to say that other terminal connection loop or hitches couldn't be used, as there are a number of suitable jam-resistant options.
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roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2013, 07:48:02 PM »
The Gnat hitch is an ideal knot for me, it's so easy to tie. Does it need to be slipped like the Buntline for ease of untying?
No slip required for the Gnat Hitch.
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Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2013, 07:57:08 PM »
Would the Zeppelin Loop be a good knot for towing a vehicle?
[...]
Is the reef knot a neccessary knot to include?
I don't know how often the reef knot will come up for you, but I get the feeling that you know it already.   ;)

A Zeppelin Loop could be used as a vehicle recovery loop as it doesn't jam, is a pleasure to adjust component lengths, and can easily be verified for correctness by a quick glance.  That's not to say that other terminal connection loop or hitches couldn't be used, as there are a number of suitable jam-resistant options.

Yes, I know the reef knot.

I like the Zeppelin - both bend and loop, - but some posters seem to have reservations about the loop version. I don't have the required knowledge to debate it's merits or otherwise.

Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2013, 07:58:04 PM »
The Gnat hitch is an ideal knot for me, it's so easy to tie. Does it need to be slipped like the Buntline for ease of untying?
No slip required for the Gnat Hitch.

excellent, thanks.

roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2013, 08:01:49 PM »
I like the Zeppelin - both bend and loop, - but some posters seem to have reservations about the loop version. I don't have the required knowledge to debate it's merits or otherwise.
I think the bottom line is that if you find both forms easy to tie, as I do, go ahead and use them.  Those who have a difficulty with tying it are free to choose alternate loops that better suit their abilities or preferences.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:13:46 PM by roo »
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X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2013, 08:02:06 PM »
   I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
   My advice : do not try to memorize a sequence of moves ! Try to understand how the knots works, why it is able to work like this (  the particular way friction is utilized, to secure the tail so it will not slip out of the knot s nub), and, at the end, what would be a possible alternative that would use a similar structure even more efficiently. Tie the "8" shaped sliding part without the main line into it a number of times. Then, when you will be tying the hitch around the main line, try to see how each move "weaves" the knot around the main line, so that the standing end and the tail will end in a position where the are encircled by the "higher" and the "lower" bights of the fig.88, AND squeezed upon each other by the overlying diagonal element, adjacent and parallel to each other - i.e, in the favourable position that maximizes the friction forces between them. It is not much different from the Constrictor - in fact, it was suggested that it is a nothing but a Constrictor-around-the-main-line based hitch.
What is the knot you refer to that is even more secure than the bowline?
   I am referring to knots that are post-eye-tiable (PET)( "bowline-like", as I use to say ), AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB). The cadidates we have till now are the Double Dragon and the pet loop, suggested by knot4u and me, respectably.
 
 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:28:12 PM by X1 »

Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2013, 08:18:02 PM »
   I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
   My advice : do not try to memorize a sequence of moves ! Try to understand how the knots works, why it is able to work like this (  the particular way friction is utilized, to secure the tail so it will not slip out of the knot s nub), and, at the end, what would be a possible alternative that would use a similar structure even more efficiently. Tie the fi.8 shaped sliding part without the main line into it a number of times. Then, when you will be tying the hitch around the main line, try to see how each move "weaves" the knot around the main line, so that the standing end and the tail will end in a position where the are encircled by the "higher" and the "lower" bights of the fig.88, AND squeezed upon each other by the overlying diagonal element, adjacent and parallel to each other - i.e, in the favourable position that maximizes the friction forces between them. It is not much different from the Constrictor - in fact, it was suggested that it is a nothing but a Constrictor-around-the-main-line based hitch.
What is the knot you refer to that is even more secure than the bowline?
   I am referring to knots that are post-eye-tiable (PET)( "bowline-like", as I use to say ), AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB). The cadidates we have till now are the Double Dragon and the pet loop, suggested by knot4u and me, respectably.

I'll certainly try to memorize all 3, thanks.