Author Topic: Which knots to know?  (Read 35889 times)

Luca

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2013, 09:22:14 PM »
Hi Roo,

If you have a loop on one end, you can thread the other end through the loop, much like a pulley to get some mechanical advantage on whatever you are binding, almost the same as a Trucker's Hitch.  Then, it's just a matter of tying off with half hitches.

One of the first knots I learned :maybe it is due to my habit,but I find that this solution is simple, fast and effective, and a really good starting  to make very compact parcels with twine.(The only "flaw", in this case, is that the mechanical advantage is likely to make you break the twine, if you pull too hard, or if the twine is not good ...)

                                                                                                          Bye!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 09:24:11 PM by Luca »

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2013, 09:29:44 PM »
Which bowline variant is most secure and safest of all, in your opinion?
   
   Oh, my dear Festy, this is something we seek, not something we already know...
   I copy and paste the first titles of my "secure bowline-like loops" notebook :


Tweedledee bowline.
Double Collar Girth hitch(ed) common bowline (Mirrored bowline)
Double Collar Clove hitch(ed) common bowline (Double Water bowline)
Double Collar Girth hitch(ed) "Eskimo" bowline
Double Collar Constrictor bowline(s)( reversed - straight )
Double Collar Pretzel bowline(s) ( untwisted - twisted )
 
   Of course, they are many simpler, also very secure bowlines, but if I have the choice, I will trust the life of my son only in one of those. I do not consider an "overkill" the avoidance of being killed, even if it looks a little unreasonable, or even dumb !  :)     
   Now, what do you notice in this list ? That all the suggested bowlines are Double Collar / Double nipping loop ones...I can not explain my choice here in a few words, but keep it in your mind, as just a humble opinion of somebody who has tied thousands of bowlines and bowline-like loops in his life...   
   In order to proceed further, we should test all those knots in a controlled laboratory environment, using universal testing machines, a great variation of materials and samples, etc. As there are still people that do not even understand the difference between a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable loop and all the other loops, I doubt that I will live enough to be able to reply to your question, with NUMBERS.  :)   

 

 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 10:03:51 PM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 09:37:34 PM »
X1, this thread must feel like heaven to you.  I bet you don't know where to begin with all the criticism.  Are you not understanding the concept that it's five slots and just about every knot is, and should be, a compromise?

   There is no such a thing as a "mid-span capability of the Sheet bend" ! There is a mid-span capability of each and every mid-span bight / loop, which can serve as a means to attach things on it later, at a second stage. What you are talking about is a mid-line loop, in general ( which is missing from your collection - I believe that it is an indispensable tool for the knot tyer...), and not the Sheet bend in particular. I thought that you were to include your favourite Span loop, so I could advertise the pet Loop a little more  :), but you did not. A more easy choice would be the Butterfly loop.

The DD is a midspan loop.

Also, when I say "mid-span capability of the Sheet Bend," I'm including the case where one rope is "infinite" and one rope has an end that is accessible.

Thank you for playing.

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 09:56:02 PM »
   Are you not understanding the concept that it's five slots and just about every knot is, and should be, a compromise?
   
   You are too quick to ask rhetoric questions about my understanding...My 5-slots list was a compromise - I went even as far as to exclude the king of knots, and the Batterfly midline loop, to save a place, and I also used one slot to insert a stopper and a tight hitch at the same time.   

you don't know where to begin with all the criticism.
 
    Whose, in relation to whom ? I do not believe on can seriously criticize the fact that a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable (PET) AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB) loop is useful, and more versatile than the others... Is the Double Perfection / Dragon Loop a PET AND a TIB loop ? [ Edit : Yes. it is. but nobody mentions this fact, and I was not aware of it, because I was under the impression that the Double Dragon was an altogether different animal, than it really is !  :)  ]. Or you do not understand those terms ?  :) ( THAT was a rhetoric question, like yours ! )
 
    Anything you can do with a Sheet bend you can also do with a mid-span bend we were discussing in the "midspan bends" thread, or with any midline loop. Do not confuse the bight of the Sheet bend, as a loop where you can attach things, with the function of the Sheet bend, as a bend. However, if you read my posts, you will see that I had "understood"  :)  the inclusion of the Sheet bend in one of the five slots, and I had even offered some further arguments in favour of it.
   
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 01:03:53 AM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 10:08:37 PM »
Just to be clear, the Double Dragon is tie-able in the bight.  In contrast, the Bowline is not.

As an end-of-line loop, the DD does not need a pre-knot.  In contrast, the Butterfly and the Zeppelin do.

    Whose, in relation to whom ? I do not believe on can seriously criticize the fact that a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable (PET) AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB) loop is useful, and more versatile than the others... Is the Double Perfection / Dragon Loop a PET AND a TIB loop ? Or you do not understand those terms ?  :) ( THAT was a rhetoric question, like yours ! )


I'm not really sure what you're saying there because it all seems to be criticism wrapped inside sarcasm wrapped inside a rhetorical question.  I'm confused.

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2013, 10:41:16 PM »
Just to be clear, the Double Dragon is tie-able in the bight.  In contrast, the Bowline is not.

   True. However, the bowline is post-eye-tiable. The Double Perfection loop / Dragon is not.
   And the pet Loop I have included in my 5 slots is PET AND TIB loop at the same time .Do you think that this is perhaps a disadvantage ?  :)

  As an end-of-line loop, the DD does not need a pre-knot.  In contrast, the Butterfly and the Zeppelin do.

  I am not sure what you really mean by this "pre-knot:".. [ Edit : I know do ! After reading all tyour posts where you are talking about a "pre-knot" and "pre-knotting", I understood what should have been clear to me and/by you, right from the start ! A loop that does not require a "pre-knot" or "pre-knotting" ,is a loop that can be tied and untied by a " one-stage process", it is a "bowline-like" loop, it is a "post-eye-tiable = post-eye-untiable" ( PET) knot !  Better late than never !  :)  ]. The Butterfly is not a PET loop - and there is no "Zeppelin loop", other than a fake, deformed ex-Zeppelin bend, which does not work as the Zeppelin bend ( i.e., as a rope-made hinge ), and which is advertised only by a few devoted believers who do not understand the structural mechanism of the true Zeppelin, or the benefits of a PET loop that can be untied in one stage. If you wish to see a Zeppelin loop that is not just an evil imposter of the name, look at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095
 
   I do not understand why, in place of the DD, you had not included the Span loop, which is PET and TIB loop at the same time ...[ Edit : Now, I do !  :)  ]

   I'm not really sure what you're saying there because it all seems to be criticism wrapped inside sarcasm wrapped inside a rhetorical question.  I'm confused.

   You are right, and I have to apologize for this behaviour. It became a knee-jerk reaction to the systematic twisting of what I write by roo, who does not understand, or pretends he does not understand, even ONE f... line of all I had written in the 2000 posts and 170 threads in this Forum ! If one could really calculate the odds all the sentences I have written there were absurd, the number would be larger than the Universe !  :) 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 10:42:51 AM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2013, 10:52:50 PM »
True. However, the bowline is post-eye-tiable. The Double Perfection loop / Dragon is not.

The DD is post-eye-tiable.  It's also tiable-in-the-bight.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 10:53:37 PM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2013, 11:26:35 PM »
The DD is post-eye-tiable.  It's also tiable-in-the-bight.

   My KnotGod, I have been tied another Double Dragon. that existed only in my imagination, all those years !  :)  Why on earth you have not mentioned it until now ? We had the same conversation many times, and I always had a different knot in my mind - perhaps because I was confusing it with the Karash double loop ? I have found the true Double Dragon at :
http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/index.html
and it is a fine PET AND TIB loop, just like the Span loop. Stick to its tail !  :)

( I am not sure that I like the double coil used as a collar, but that is a different story. Being a PET AND a TIB loop makes every loop a most useful, versatile one ! Even the ABoK#1037, where the tail is less securely locked by the collar limbs, than in the Double Dragon, I think ).
 
   P.S. There ware two not-so brand new / recent threads about the Double Dragon, which were written while I was sleeping, evidently ! Why nobody had ever mentioned that the Double Dragon is a crossing-knot based loop ?
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=21.0
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=112.0
 

 
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 10:46:15 AM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2013, 11:51:28 PM »
Most people bypass the Double Dragon because it appears difficult to tie at first glance.  Even I ignored this knot for years.  Also, I listened to one bad review without testing it myself.  Somebody had said it jams.  However, I have so far been unable to jam the DD, and it's a pleasure to tie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 12:00:04 AM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2013, 12:19:18 AM »
Most people bypass the Double Dragon because it appears difficult to tie at first glance.  Even I ignored this knot for years.  Also, I listened to one bad review without testing it myself.  Somebody had said it jams.  However, I have so far been unable to jam the DD, and it's a pleasure to tie.
It is jam prone as a midline loop when the parent line is under tension, or when tied as a bend as Dave Root has depicted on his site. The Double Dragon Midline Loop variant doesn't seem to be jam prone when the loop is loaded and either the standing part is pulled by itself or when the loop is loaded and what is usually the free end is pulled by itself. 

In other words, the midline variant is OK when pulled on from one side only.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 12:19:53 AM by roo »
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X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2013, 12:30:43 AM »
Most people bypass the Double Dragon because it appears difficult to tie at first glance.
 
   Myself I had bypassed the altogether different beast I was used to tie, because I was deceived by this silly name " Double" ! It has not a Double nipping loop, or a Double collar, neither it is a Double Loop ! Why on earth is it called "Double" ? Because of this double coil around its neck ? Which I am not even sure if it is really necessary ? Moreover, no one never mentioned the simple fact that it is just a crossing-knot based loop, i.e. PET = bowline-like ! And I have to tell you that you contributed to my mistake, by this wrong and/or misunderstood comment of yours, at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg19363#msg19363

every other Bowline [is] based on an Overhand knot.  Even the Water Bowline?  Yes, even the Water Bowline.  If you don't see the Overhand knot, then keep looking.

   As another example, the Double Dragon is also eliminated from the Bowline family because the working end does NOT enter the nipping turn such that the structure is topologically equivalent to an Overhand knot at that point.
   
   Where is this "overhand knot", when, clearly, every crossing-knot-based nipping structure / loop is topologically equivalent to the unknot, I wonder !  :) 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 01:07:53 AM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2013, 01:14:03 AM »
Come on, Xarax.  You are experienced to know that knot names are for identification and are often meaningless.

roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2013, 01:44:15 AM »
Did you find a memorable/easy way of tying it [the double dragon loop] as an end loop that you can thread through an object?

Yep. I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj3mXk_FbBk. After doing it once or twice, I found it pretty easy to commit to memory. I learned it yesterday and on waking this morning, I'm confident I can do it from memory without any trouble.
You're doing better than me.  After trying this on and off today from memory and even while watching the video, I'm giving up.  It's just not clicking.  That shift of the standing part at 1:19 tends to throw me, among other issues.  Oh well.
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X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2013, 01:45:19 AM »
Come on, Xarax.. knot names are for identification and are often meaningless.
This name is deceiving and misleading, too ! Anyway, I am glad that I have not been eaten alive by this beast !  :)  See a relevant post :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4428.0
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 01:47:26 AM by X1 »

kd8eeh

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2013, 05:17:47 AM »
I hate to be practical here, but in life it will at some point be important that you tie a necktie (most likely) and not very many knots serve that function.  With that in mind i would nominate the half windsor, or perhaps a full windsor.
Also, i would highly recommend learning a constrictor knot.  In a pinch, they make a very strong (if  rather perminent) hitch, and they also are a unique binding knot which is useful for many things.  By tying peoples hands together with a constrictor, i have inspired many to learn the knot, fascinated by the fact that rope can do such a thing.  It is probably not the most practical knot, nor the most useful, but it is among the most fun.
5 knots probably isn't enough to even get by for a lot of things.  You probably need a bend, a loop (those may be the same, like a weaverman's knot (sheet bend tied like bowline) and a bowline), a hitch, a stopper, and an adjustable loop.  A slip knot can make a good noose and also a stopper, but can't maintain tension.  for that you could use a gripping hitch or a trucker's hitch. Keep in mind that depending on what bend you choose, tying your shoes in the morning could become quite an ordeal.  In light of that, i don't think i could live with just 5.