Author Topic: Which knots to know?  (Read 33594 times)

roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2013, 07:21:29 PM »
. Festy has not used the knots of his own 5-slot selection...
Maybe Festy changed his personal list but didn't explicitly say so here. 

I could also see a Versatackle being considered a mere implementation of his Span Loops, rather than a basic knot to be included in his list.
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X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2013, 08:01:45 PM »
I could also see a Versatackle being considered a mere implementation of his Span Loops, rather than a basic knot to be included in his list.
  The Versatackle, is, like the Trucker hitch, an "expanded", compound knot, a "non local" rope mechanism which is nothing but the implementation of the block and tackle simple machine in the field of knotting. Therefore, I agree that it is not a "knot" like the others, that should be considered if it will be included or omitted in a knot list. However, this is a matter of the definition of what a "knot" is, in general, a much more complex thing than any particular knot !  :)
   On the other hand, what the Versatackle or the Trucker s hitch is certainly not, is "a mere implementation of the Span Loops" ! The Span loop is just one of the dozens of the possible TIB loops that can well be utilized in a Versatackle or a Trucker s hitch - and I am not going to discuss which is the "best" loop for those particular rope-made simple machines here... If the Versatackle could be considered such a "mere implementation" of an X TIB loop, it should also be considered as a "mere implementation" of a Y TIB loop, or a W TIB loop, the slip overhand knot, the Butterfly loop, the Double Dragon loop, etc. - i.e. of every possible TIB single or even double midline loop there is - the most multitudinous family of knots we know  !  :)  When one thing is a mere implementation of many things, one should wonder if what is really happening is the exact opposite !
   What is really the case is that the Versatackle or the Trucker s hitch are "expanded" knot mechanisms, that utilize midline loops - but the eyeknots of the midline loops themselves are three-ends ordinary knots, just as the end-to-end two-end knots ( bends).
   Therefore, if you have chosen the Alpine Butterfly as your mid-line loop ( a fine choice ! ), you should stick to it, anf utilize this midline loop in your Versatackle or Trucker s hitch ! Sorry Festy, no Span loop allowed, I am afraid !  :)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 08:08:23 PM by X1 »

Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2013, 09:37:18 PM »
Guys,

I should have said the Butterfly and not the Span.

A brain fart typo stemming from an hour of practising the Span I guess.

However, I did use the Gnat instead of the S/Buntline.

My revised list of 5 is:

1. Round turn with two half hitches.

2. Gnat Hitch.

3. Alpine Butterfly.

4. Standard Bowline.

5. Zeppelin Bend


- I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2013, 09:55:36 PM »
   I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.
  The Double Dragon is a fine, versatile knot - although the fact that has to be "doubled", may be considered as an indication of a weakness (?). 
  However, if you do include the Double Dragon, why do you have to keep the Alpine Butterfly, which, is as a mid-line loop, does the same job just as the Double Dragon ?
   Also the "Round turn and two Half Hitches" is a much more versatile knot than any particular hitch, perhaps even than the Buntline and the "Buntline extinguisher" - and certainly a much better and much more versatile knot than the "just not-bad" Gnat hitch. Two hitches, which do almost the same job, in 5, only, slots ? Too many !
   Keep playing !  :)
   
   
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 10:11:28 PM by X1 »

Festy

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #109 on: June 20, 2013, 10:20:55 PM »
   I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.
  The Double Dragon is a fine, versatile knot - although the fact that has to be "doubled", may be considered as an indication of a weakness (?). 
  However, if you do include the Double Dragon, why do you have to keep the Alpine Butterfly, which, is as a mid-line loop, does the same job just as the Double Dragon ?
   Also the "Round turn and two Half Hitches" is a much more versatile knot than any particular hitch, perhaps even than the Buntline and the "Buntline extinguisher" - and certainly a much better and much more versatile knot than the "just not-bad" Gnat hitch. Two hitches, which do almost the same job, in 5, only, slots ? Too many !
   Keep playing !  :)
   
 

I will definitely keep the Alpine Butterfly, I really like it.

Would the RT&2HH's be suitable in this case - "the Gnat Hitch is largely unaffected by the cross-sectional shape of the hitching object"?

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #110 on: June 20, 2013, 10:45:02 PM »
[Is] the RT&2HH's... largely unaffected by the cross-sectional shape of the hitching object"?
  Of course it is...but why do you ask ? Tie and try !  :)
 For some more complex hitches, see :
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1411.0;attach=502
 

roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2013, 01:32:40 AM »
Would the RT&2HH's be suitable in this case - "the Gnat Hitch is largely unaffected by the cross-sectional shape of the hitching object"?
While the cross section of the hitching object isn't likely to be a problem, the issue with two half hitches is general security.  As the rope gets stiffer, those half hitches tend to spring open and untie.  Once the outer layer is gone, the hitch is toast.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 01:43:47 AM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #112 on: June 21, 2013, 01:42:56 AM »
- I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.
I think someday when you're threading the rope through an object, you'll end up with an error with an attempted Double Dragon Loop.  And since there are so many knot forms that look like it, you probably won't catch that error.

If you don't like a simple Bowline for lack of security, then a Water Bowline or a Zeppelin Loop would both be easier to tie and check than a Double Dragon Loop, and both will have better security in stiff or slick rope than a Double Dragon as an added benefit.

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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2013, 07:13:29 AM »
However, this is a matter of the definition of what a "knot" is,
in general, a much more complex thing than any particular knot !  :)

Indeed, such topics as this tend to lack a strict
definition of what *knot* is, and in turn what
the goal of the contest is.  E.g., no one here has
recommended the clove & marlinespike hitches
and yet there are nooses --which I would count
as compound knotted structures vs "knots"--
that use them as their *knotted* parts (and
are here under the guise of being hitches).

One can sometimes see such short lists used as
a kind of *seeding* of knotting notions, from
which one can grow a considerable set of *knots*.

But among some sets, here, I don't see how to
accomplish some everyday things such as tying
shoes.  I know how to tie the butterfly by a
couple of ways (much liking Alpineer's intial one!),
but I know that I seldom do so --it's simply not
a much needed knot.


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knot4u

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2013, 12:06:47 PM »
Festy, you do have quite a bit of overlap in your list of 5. I recommend you not even try to make a list of 5. Instead, just experiment with a whole bunch of different knots at this point. Don't restrict yourself to your personal applications either. Try to imagine every scenario in which you might ever need a knot. Practice those scenarios too. That process will inevitably lead into experimenting with fishing knots, climbing knots, rappelling knots, etc. You'll obtain a broader understanding and will have a better appreciation of what people are trying to summarize for you in this thread.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 12:27:07 AM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2013, 01:05:24 PM »
I don't see how to accomplish some everyday things such as tying shoes.
Try to imagine every scenario in which you might ever need a knot.
   Any limited set of knots can not address every possible knotting problem, by definition - because, even if there was such a set, we could always imagine yet another particular complication of the situation, yet another requirement from the application, that would inevitably lead to another knot.
   Now, should we compile a set of knots according to the most "usual uses" of the knots in "everyday things" ?  I do not think so. In fact, that would be too easy, just make a list of all the knots you use, count the numbers you use each knot, and delete all parts of the so sorted list after 5. The number of times we use some knots does not make the particular applications of those knots more important than the others, for which we use other knots. Tying shoes is not an important thing - I have not tied my shoes for decades now, just because I do not use shoes with shoelaces. Moreover, millions of people had lived without shoes and shoelaces - and perhaps less than people that lived without a knot to tie a necklace around their wife s neck ! On the contrary, I can imagine a situation where the rare knot I would have been forced to use once, and only once, in my life, would be the most important thing of what I would have ever done  !  :)
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4418.msg27862#msg27862
   Therefore, I think that the different knots that we should include in pour list should be different kinds of knots, that belong to different "knot categories", i.e. different knots in relation to the knots themselves, their own functional and structural characteristics, and not different in relation to different practical applications by different knot tyers - even if these application should be addressed more or less often than others in every day life. I do not use a bend very often, but I would nt imagine any set of knots that will not include one, at least, bend.
  The specific purposes for which we need knots can not classify the knots themselves in different "categories". In fact, what we do is the exact opposite : We already have a number of knots, that we have tied by exploring any simple and secure knot that can exist, and then we utilize / use those knots, as tools, according to their properties, in many different practical applications. Even if a knot is discovered when someone tried to solve a particular problem, the moment this knot is tied, it functions as a rope-made mechanism, so it acquires an autonomous existence, it becomes a tool - a tool which can solve many similar practical problems, but also many problems that belong to other "categories" as well. So, it is better if we classify the knots according to their function, and not according to the specific purpose they can serve.

 
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 04:48:24 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Which knots to know?
« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2013, 04:59:11 PM »
  You conveniently deleted, "Try to imagine..."
   I had edited my post. My point had nothing to do with this "try to imagine" part. The "conveniently" lies only in your imagination !
   Read again, please, what I wrote, and "try to understand" ...There was not a single word that could be considered as a criticism of this hypothetical or not scenario. It was only addressing the "many applications" issue, in relation to the "many knot categories" one.
   Therefore, I think that the different knots that we should include in pour list should be different kinds of knots, that belong to different "knot categories", i.e. different knots in relation to the knots themselves... and not different in relation to different practical applications .