Author Topic: Top 6 (or 10) knots  (Read 4936 times)

KnotMe

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • The Dao of Silk
Top 6 (or 10) knots
« on: June 10, 2013, 02:25:26 AM »
So, while making my knot learning table, I had thought to do a top 6 (or 8 or 10) knots in each category.  Not being a practical knotter by inclination, I made my lists through 'net research.  Here's my notes in the hopes that the lists and categories can be refined for future use and/or reference by others.  Most of the articles I found were disposable pop stuff, even from subject specific magazines, often having only 2-3 knots, so they would as a general rule always be the same ones.

Not including the simple/overhand/half knot or the double overhand.

general/household
reef knot - plus slipped versions for bows and shoes
surgeon's knot
double overhand
constrictor knot
slip knot
cow hitch
? - something for tying non-gift type packages, stacks of newspapers or similar

Climbing - found a fairly good article for climbing, hence this category is more complete than the others
figure 8 - the kids have had fairly regular climbing parties.  I've seen the figure 8 used to attach the harness to safety lines.  So, a crucial climbing knot
figure 8 on a bight - similar use?
clove hitch
bowline
Prusik Knot
water knot - essentially an overhand bend tied in webbing, apparently it is used to make loops in webbing that are used for hand holds?
double fisherman's bend - also known as the grapevine knot
alpine butterfly
italian hitch

boating
bowline
sheet bend
clove hitch
round turn and 2 half hitches
cleat hitch - attaching boat lines to the dock
sheepshank

Camping and other outdoor activities
reef knot
clove hitch
girth hitch
bowline
chain sinnet
timber hitch - name derives from actually dragging logs, also useful for bundling sticks and the like
taut line hitch

Farming - ? - many of the usual plus something for baling?
Rescue - ? - many of the usual plus some harness/makeshift seat sort of things
Fishing - this is a whole can of worms ;D that I was going to just ignore.  ;)

Craft
lark's head - aka cow hitch aka girth hitch
square knot - aka reef knot
surgeon's knot
slip knot - knitting, crochet
weaver's knot - aka sheet bend aka basic netting knot
half hitch - friendship bracelets, knotless netting
Josephine knot - aka carrick bend aka double coin
simple/common whipping

Ruby

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 173
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 03:32:13 AM »
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 02:04:31 AM by Ruby »

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1801
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 04:53:29 AM »
Some editing:

Not including the simple/overhand or the double overhand.

general/household
reef knot - plus slipped versions for bows and shoes
surgeon's knot
double overhand
constrictor knot
slip knot
cow hitch
Zeppelin Bend
Gnat Hitch
HFP Slippery 8 Loop
Pile Hitch

Climbing
figure 8
figure 8 on a bight
clove hitch
bowline
Prusik Knot
water knot
double fisherman's bend
Butterfly Loop
italian hitch
Zeppelin Bend(also fine in webbing)
Zeppelin Loop
Gnat Hitch
Water Bowline

boating
bowline & Water Bowline
sheet bend
clove hitch
round turn and 2 half hitches
cleat hitch - attaching boat lines to the dock
sheepshank
Zeppelin Bend
Zeppelin Loop
Gnat Hitch
Sailor's Hitch & Gripping Sailor's Hitch Can be used as a cleat hitch as well.
Pile Hitch

Camping and other outdoor activities
reef knot
clove hitch
girth hitch
bowline
chain sinnet
timber hitch & variants
taut line hitch
Zeppelin Bend
Gnat Hitch
Versatackle
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 05:10:46 AM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


X1

  • Inactive
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1200
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 09:28:21 AM »
... top... knots in each category. 

   I believe that this "category" you mention is already a very problematic notion, and, if you are going to proceed like this, you would nt be able to arrive anywhere, I am afraid... The specific purposes for which we need knots can not classify the knots themselves in different "categories". In fact, what we do is the exact opposite : We already have a number of knots, that we have tied by exploring any simple and secure knot that can exist, and then we utilize / use those knots, as tools, according to their properties, in many different practical applications. Even if a knot is discovered when someone tried to solve a particular problem, the moment this knot is tied, it functions as a rope-made mechanism, so it acquires an autonomous existence, it becomes a tool - a tool which can solve many similar practical problems, but also many problems that belong to other "categories" as well. So, it is better if we classify the knots according to their function, and not according to the specific purpose they can serve. There is a mediocre gripping hitch that somebody ( who, evidently, knows what "sailing" is only by watching TV  :) ) denoted as a "Sailor s Hitch" ! It was never used as a sailing or boating knot - and it will never be used as such, I can assure you -, but it is a gripping hitch nevertheless, independently of how efficient it is in that role. So, if you wish to classify this knot, it is better if you sort it under the general "category"  Gripping hitches. You can make yet another distinction, and classify it as a gripping hitch able to withstand a right angle pull ( perpendicular to the axis of the pole ) or a lengthwise pull ( parallel to the axis of the pole ), as Ashley did at Chapters 21 and 22 - or classify it according to if it is a TIB hitch or not, or if it is a tight hitch or not - but to classify it as a "boating" knot does not "categorize" the knot itself, but the "user" of it only : he should be a shepherd !  :)
   Now, Ashley himself has a Chapter in ABoK he calls "Occupational knots". I believe he was forced to include it by his publisher  :), in an effort to sell more books. It is an amusing chapter, full of anecdotal tangles, but it should had better be omitted altogether. Ashley himself had not paid much attention to it -and that was unfortunate, because he missed the opportunity to think a little more ( as a knot tyer, not as a knot user ... ) on the Captain Mullin s hitch ( ABoK#160, 161), and discover the Gleipnir !
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 09:34:49 AM by X1 »

Sweeney

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 12:33:21 PM »
I believe that this "category" you mention is already a very problematic notion, and, if you are going to proceed like this, you would nt be able to arrive anywhere, I am afraid...

I agree with this - if there is to be a table of some sort then it as least 2 dimensional and should not be based on "activities" which just leads to repetition. A good example is "Fishing" - actually the knots are not necessarily anything to do with fishing but arose from the need to tie knots in slippery fine materials eg nylon monofilament so it is the material which is relevant rather the activity in this case. So however knots are listed the rows might show the knots and the columns material or purposes with a star rating perhaps. At least each knot only appears once but can be rated against material, purpose (eg binder, slide & grip) and any other crterion thought relevant. For example a reef knot may be worthy of only 1 star as a bend, but perhaps 3 or 4 stars as a binder but no stars tied in fishing line.

Barry

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1801
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 03:15:48 PM »
Ashley himself had not paid much attention to it -and that was unfortunate, because he missed the opportunity to think a little more ( as a knot tyer, not as a knot user ... ) on the Captain Mullin s hitch ( ABoK#160, 161), and discover the Gleipnir !
Perhaps Ashley had more sense than to chase an unstable knot that unreliably produces little tension while using twice as much rope.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1801
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »
that somebody ( who, evidently, knows what "sailing" is only by watching TV  :) ) denoted as a "Sailor s Hitch" ! It was never used as a sailing or boating knot - and it will never be used as such, I can assure you -
Is that so?  A certain seaman by the name of Clifford W. Ashley seemed to like this simple little hitch just fine.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 06:40:50 AM »
while making my knot learning table,
I had thought to do a top 6 (or 8 or 10) knots in each category.

What is the purpose of this "learning table" --who is
the intended audience?
 ("my" could mean either "by me" or "for me".)

Quote
Not being a practical knotter by inclination, I made my lists through 'net research.

Yet, practically, you do use knots, occasionally, yes?

Quote
Most of the articles I found were disposable pop stuff, even from subject specific magazines, often having only 2-3 knots, so they would as a general rule always be the same ones.

And can be amazingly bad : e.g., one in a maritime magazine
that began by allowing that it might be okay to give lashes to
one's spouse for mistying ..., and then presenting the simple
cleat hitch incorrectly (and this author was himself his illustrator,
so no excuses)!!

Quote
Not including the simple/overhand/half knot or the double overhand.

But you DO include the latter.  Why not the former,
which I think is underrated for its utility --in being
the easiest stopper to tie snug to something (though
I'm finding that that takes more work than I've
surmised, to get it really snug!)

There is a fundamental question : are you trying to present
what commonly falls under your categories by general usage,
or what might be recommendable by some wise insight to
do so, perhaps with displacement of the usual by the novel?
(Roo's notion of climbing & sailing knots will not win him
many partners in those activities!)


general/household
reef knot - plus slipped versions for bows and shoes
surgeon's knot
double overhand
constrictor knot
slip knot
cow hitch
? - something for tying non-gift type packages, stacks of newspapers or similar

To what purpose do you see the ("not included"!   ::)  )
dbl.oh?  --stopper, or strangle knot ?!
I have wondered how generally useful the constrictor
really is (and you might've been one to answer).
There is the #1674? version that is (a) more easily
tied, and (b) can serve qua hitch.

By "slip knot", do you perhaps really intend the
overhand noose?

Maybe a friction hitch should be here --rolling hitch
or something.  (round turn &) two half-hitches seems
a basic knot (which could be described as using the
clove hitch to make a noose, which is how I want
to cast it, *knot*-wise).


Climbing - found a fairly good article for climbing, hence this category is more complete than the others
figure 8 - the kids have had fairly regular climbing parties.  I've seen the figure 8 used to attach the harness to safety lines.  So, a crucial climbing knot
figure 8 on a bight - similar use?
clove hitch
bowline
Prusik Knot
water knot - essentially an overhand bend tied in webbing, apparently it is used to make loops in webbing that are used for hand holds?
double fisherman's bend - also known as the grapevine knot
alpine butterfly
italian hitch

The bowline-vs-fig.8 eyeknot debates frequent rockclimbing
forums.  Some climbing gyms require the latter, and in that
setting, really, it's not much a problem and not worth the
battle --falls will not be huge, and one is in a place where
untying the knot isn't a big deal even if it's a struggle.

The butterfly / lineman's loop has less utility in this
arena than some enthusiasts would lead one to believe.
Whereas the clove hitch is regularly depended upon, in making anchors.


boating
bowline
sheet bend
clove hitch
round turn and 2 half hitches
cleat hitch - attaching boat lines to the dock
sheepshank

I'm calling you out on the last : for what purpose can you
see using the sheepshank ?!  (Do you believe everything
you read?   :P  )  One might want to understand that
with "2 half-hitches" the next number is 3 --and it might
be wise to choose that one, in some modern ropes!
.
.
.
Fishing - this is a whole can of worms ;D that I was going to just ignore.  ;)

Actually, the worms of nylon monofilament fishline that
have wriggled a bunch o' *new* knots can pop up under
the General category --at least in such places as galleries
and so on.  So, ignore this at your peril!  Or ignore stringing
your pearls, whatever.


--dl*
===


X1

  • Inactive
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1200
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 08:50:40 AM »
  There is no halo of mystery around numbers 6 and 10  :). If you really wish a magic number, I suggest you choose number 7 : 7 wonders of the world, etc....
  Here is my list, where I have inserted a pastoral element, to be in accord with the occupation of people who advertise their "Sailor s hitch" !  :)
 
1. Blackwall hitch ( it can possibly be tied around a shepherd s crook ? ).
2. Gleipnir.
3. Bowline ( the knot preferred by seamen ).
4. Zeppelin knot ( the bend, not the fake so-called "Zeppelin loop" preferred by shepherds ).
5. Round turn and two half hitches.
6. Alpine Butterfly midline loop.
7. One knot you are going to figure out and tie by yourself ( I do not believe that watching TV is going to make any difference regarding this...)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 10:03:55 PM by X1 »

KnotMe

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • The Dao of Silk
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 07:16:30 PM »
while making my knot learning table, I had thought to do a top 6 (or 8 or 10) knots in each category.

What is the purpose of this "learning table" --who is the intended audience? ("my" could mean either "by me" or "for me".)
"my" == "by me" for a general public audience.  As a general rule for myself, I don't usually nail cord to a plank when I'm learning knots.   :D

I realize that I am a poor, poor choice to be teaching anyone practical knots, but somehow I keep ending up in this position.  The knot learning table has the virtue of speaking for itself, kind of, and I can use it to dispense the distilled wisdom of the guild to a certain extent. ;D

Quote
Quote
Not being a practical knotter by inclination, I made my lists through 'net research.

Yet, practically, you do use knots, occasionally, yes?
I do, but if you were to ask me "does this capsize under load"  or "is this optimal for this task" I have no answer not being an outdoors type of any stripe.  I do not even have a default practical package (vs gift bow) tie, which I really must rectify.

Quote
Quote
Most of the articles I found were disposable pop stuff, even from subject specific magazines, often having only 2-3 knots, so they would as a general rule always be the same ones.

And can be amazingly bad : e.g., one in a maritime magazine that began by allowing that it might be okay to give lashes to one's spouse for mistying ..., and then presenting the simple cleat hitch incorrectly (and this author was himself his illustrator, so no excuses)!!
Exactly.  Most lists begin and end with the bowline.  Maybe throw in the figure 8 and the reef.  I must be missing something because never have I ever used a bowline.  If I want a fixed loop, I'd probably tie a Chinese button knot (knife lanyard) or a 2 strand Matthew Walker (double connection), just 'cos that's how I roll.   ;D

Quote
Quote
Not including the simple/overhand/half knot or the double overhand.

But you DO include the latter......
I was waffling over the inclusion of the double overhand.  The simple/overhand knot is the default knot.  Everyone knows it even if they don't  have a name for it.  The only purpose to putting it on a knot learning table would be to give it a name.  The double overhand is probably the next most common knot that I see every day, since most drawstring bungee's on people's coats have the double overhand/barrel/grinner as the stopper and defacto whipping/end finishing knot.

Quote
general/household
I figured I was on pretty firm ground here, as I do use these knots.   8)

Quote
To what purpose do you see the ("not included"!   ::)  ) dbl.oh?  --stopper, or strangle knot ?!
Personally, I rarely use the overhand by itself, but if you watch a lay-knotter they'll just pile overhands, with maybe a few round turns thrown in, one after the other until instinct tells them whatever they are binding might be sufficiently secure.  The double O would be my default stopper, or more likely something more complex.  8)

Quote
I have wondered how generally useful the constrictor really is (and you might've been one to answer).
I use it for cable ties when the need arises.  The spouse has a big bucket of zipties in various sizes, so usually he'll use those.

Quote
By "slip knot", do you perhaps really intend the overhand noose?
I mean this.

Quote
Maybe a friction hitch should be here --rolling hitch or something.  (round turn &) two half-hitches seems a basic knot (which could be described as using the clove hitch to make a noose, which is how I want to cast it, *knot*-wise).
A good recommendation.

Quote
Climbing...

The butterfly / lineman's loop has less utility in this arena than some enthusiasts would lead one to believe. Whereas the clove hitch is regularly depended upon, in making anchors.
The next time the kids go climbing, I was going to ask the instructor which knots they teach in their classes.


Quote
boating....
I'm calling you out on the last : for what purpose can you see using the sheepshank ?!  (Do you believe everything you read?   :P  )  One might want to understand that with "2 half-hitches" the next number is 3 --and it might be wise to choose that one, in some modern ropes!
I don't.  8)  I don't boat.  I have never personally used it.  Pat had it on his learning board.  After the bowline it's one of the most mentioned knots in non-specialist discussions (probably prusik in climbing and maybe the palomar in fishing).  I like to believe things that I read.   ;D

Quote
Quote
Fishing - this is a whole can of worms ;D that I was going to just ignore.  ;)

Actually, the worms of nylon monofilament fishline that have wriggled a bunch o' *new* knots can pop up under the General category --at least in such places as galleries and so on.  So, ignore this at your peril!  Or ignore stringing your pearls, whatever.
Fair enough.  Fisherman types may be unaware that the crafters have taken to using fishing line a lot in their work.  Beaders in particular often use Fireline and similar products for stringing beads.  Surgeon's knot and a drop of glue is the usual recommendation in those cases.

My daily search email often has articles about fishing and knots.  Most often it's about the palomar or uni-knot.  I don't fish.  I don't even eat fish.   8)  I have no idea who is blithering and who is reliable.  It's such a large topic with so much discussion that I just try to stay out of the way.

KnotMe

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • The Dao of Silk
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 07:28:25 PM »
Agree with X1 on the arbitrariness of lists. Especially with a Top 10.
Who would have thought toes had such a hold on our imagination!
The fact that lists are often arbitrary should not obviate how drawn people are to them, as a general rule.

Quote
Perhaps the best way would be to ask IGKT members to provide a list of knots "they have actually used in the wild."
e.g. A member of IGKT who messes about with sailboats could list which knot he/she actually uses and what function each knot performed.

Climbers, Campers and Bondage aficionados can do the same. :)
Kind of what I was hoping this thread would generate.   ;D

When my Philippe Petit book arrives I will have to consult it on what he has to say.  One assumes that tightrope walking and climbing have a certain synergy. 

...Ah!  I can email the kids' scout leaders and ask them what knots they actually use in camping.

Quote
There are too many Desk Jockey generated lists around. :(
Too true.

X1

  • Inactive
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1200
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2013, 10:06:32 AM »
   I have not said anything against the usefulness of "categories" of knots ! I had only said that those categories should not be based on the occupations of the knot tyers, but on the properties / functional and structural characteristics of the knot themselves... Just forget Chapters 2, 26 and 27 * of ABoK, and go on with your list based on the titles of the remaining 38... :)

(* The slide-and-grip lockable ABoK 1089 - 1992 loops, where the ABoK#1991 / Weston arthroscopic knot is included (1), should have been presented in Chapter 11 and/or 13...)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4107.msg25270#msg25270
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 10:16:18 AM by X1 »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Top 6 (or 10) knots
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2013, 07:12:33 PM »
Quote
By "slip knot", do you perhaps really intend the overhand noose?
I mean this.
::)
And that is typically ambiguous, to my quick scan (I jumped
to Step 7 to spare the tedium  :P ) and absorbed only enough
of the pre-ramble to see no clear indication of loading /use.

The slip knot is properly an overhand stopper that is finished
with a "slip-tuck"/bight, for quick untying; whereas if one loads
the tail of this, one has the knot sliding along it to effect a
noose --quite some distinction (and, again, to my quick
glance, completely missed by the above presentation).

The stopper can be helpful when tying in the bight or for making
a clove noose / 2 half-hitches more secure and somewhat quickly
untied --finish with a slip-tuck and put the slip-knot into that,
tail being tail --initial pull spills the knot then pulls out the bight.

And the overhand stopper as I've noted is one that better suits
many tasks in being pretty able to be set snug to the object
one is stopping against --such as knot--; one can't do this with
other stoppers (barring much "working").   And, e.g., if that
example slip-knot completing the "clove noose" above isn't
snug to the 2nd half-hitch, the latter can loosen with enough
space to let the stopper come out.


--dl*
====