do you also apply such reasoning to the turNip of your beloved bowline ?!
No, simply because the beloved bowline is not a compound knot.
Also, because the beloved bowline can not be jammed, i.e. it can not remain tightly tied, even after any initial loading on any of its (three) limbs has been removed. The Timber hitch + nipping loop + Half hitch compound knot I had applied this reasoning on, can. In such a jammed knot, the
third "half-hitch-like" part can be part of the "whole" compound knot, i.e. it can remain tightly attached to it, even if one of its end is unloaded ( the standing part of the "whole" compound knot ). That is why I think it is better to characterize this
third knot as a "Half hitch", indeed, and not as a "nipping loop". ( A "hitch", any hitch, be it either a "Half" hitch or a "Single" hitch, has one loaded and one unloaded end, while in a "nipping loop" both ends are unloaded ). The
second / middle "half-hitch-like" knot, if it is functioning part of the "whole" compound knot ( in a jammed knot, it is...), and not just loosely attached to the Timber hitch first part, has always both its ends loaded, so it is a nipping loop.
I know that this is not such a tasty
vegetarian salad, but I believe it can be digested without severe consequences !
I am not saying that it is the only thing one can eat, but, for the time being, I do not see any other dish around.
Considering the *knot* "jammed" is a curious addition to perspective, and arguably inappropriate to deliberation
(something dependent upon our unsettled definition of "knot").
It is an
addition, indeed, and it might even be
curious to some, but it was the only salad I was able to prepare in order to feed the discussion. My purpose was to show that the
second / middle"half-hitch-like" knot is not a genuine / "proper" "hitch", because it always has both its ends loaded : it is always a "nipping loop". On the contrary, the
third "half-hitch-like" knot, even if it also has both its ends loaded
when the "whole" compound knot is pulled by its standing end, it can be / should better be characterized as a "Half hitch".
Why ? Because it can be a part of the "Whole" compound knot
even if the standing end of the "whole" compound knot is NOT loaded, i.e. even if this
third part is loaded by one end only - the end that connects it to the
second / middle part.
When ? In the case the standing end of the "whole" compound knot is not loaded any more, but the knot remains tightly tied :
in the case of a jammed knot. In the case this
third part can be firmly attached to the rest of the compound knot when the standing end of the "whole" compound knot is not pulled any more, it is not a nipping loop, so it can be / should better be characterized not as a nipping loop but as a Half hitch,
in all cases.
another place where I can make trouble with my unicorn's horn --works great as a marlinespike to penetrate and untie confused thinking jammed into a knot!--:
As said, the "Mirrored" bowline, as a whole, is not a compound knot - and I believe it can not be jammed either.
However, the Girth-hitch-like Double nipping loop can be considered as a compound knot, indeed, made by two "bridged" single nipping loops, so there might be a hole in between for your horn. However, it will only penetrate an already wide open hole : If no limb of the "Mirrored" bowline knot is loaded, the two single nipping loop parts will not be tightly connected the one to the other, as the three parts of the Timber hitch + nipping loop + half hitch jammed knot were ! Why ? Because the two single nipping loops will be connected by a loose bridge, and by three other loose segments - and if two parts are connected by four loose segments, they are still two loosely connected parts, so they are not parts of a compound knot ( four is not better than one, in this case !
). What you were able to figure out with the part underneath the horn, was not a compound knot, as the knot on which I had "applied such reasoning" : it was just two isolated knots, arranged the one after the other. Read my lips :
if the compound knot is a genuine compound knot of three parts, and not just an arrangement of three isolated knots alongside a pole.
The unloaded "Mirrored" bowline with a loose bridge is not a compound knot, and can not be jammed either, because the two parts are not
tightly connected the one to the other : They are
isolated : so they are just two individual knots are
arranged the one after the other, alongside three loose rope segments.
In fact, one could dispense with the discovery of the part under the horn or of the horn itself, right at the start, by just pointing out that two loosely connected bowlines can not be jammed, just because no one of the two bowlines can be jammed... but I would nt miss the opportunity of a little big horn fight, would I ?
I have tried to follow the evident form in preference to some notion of behavior :
e.g., at least to seeing the venerable (turn &) two half-hitches and midshipman's/tautline hitch(es) as *nooses*
Not too bad ! Even if form and/or function alone does not define a knot - we need to "see" the tensile forces going through the lines, so to be able to distinguish a half hitch from a nipping loop - nevertheless it is an interesting attempt to characterize the parts beyond the skin-deep "looks". I wouldn't mind if I was to characterize / describe the second / middle knot, not as a "nipping loop", as I already did, but as a "noose".
Hence, I don't care to follow that part of Ashley.
Neither do I - but I believe his biggest mistake was the confusion of the bowline s nipping loop with the Sheet bend s half hitch, which, incidentally, blinded a generation of knot tyers, including you.
As for the distinction of the "Half" hitch to the "Single" hitch, the topology-based definition I had attempted at Reply#4 :
The Single Hitch is topologically equivalent to the Overhand knot, while the Half Hitch to the Unknot.
is a very clear one, I believe. It does not matter much if we decide to characterize the two form as Ashley did, or as I did ( the exact opposite of Ashley : what he calls a "Single" hitch I call a "Half" hitch, and vice versa ). The important thing is that the two forms are topologically distinct from each other.