Author Topic: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots  (Read 23688 times)

X1

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the pet loop
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 11:27:21 PM »
   Notice two things :
   1. The second end ( at the right side of the picture ) of the first "small" bight ( the bight that is going to form the nipping loop ) goes "over" its first end ( at the left side of the picture ), while the second end ( at the right side of the picture ) of the last "small" bight ( the bight that is going to form the collar around the eye legs ) goes "under" its first end ( at the left side of the picture). So, if the first bight is a "right-hand" one, the last is a "left-hand", and vice versa.
   2. Both reeved bights should penetrate the stationary ones going from the same, their "back" side, to their "front" side, as shown at the second and third attached pictures.
 
   I have no doubt that this loop is much better than the Span loop ( ABoK#1049 ) - the tail is secured/locked in between the first curves of the standing part AND the returning eye leg ), but, judging from past experience, I reckon that this would need 60, at least, years to be understood and appreciated by Ashley s devoted followers :).     
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 08:01:58 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2013, 02:00:13 PM »
   I believe that people accustomed to the tying method of the Span loop ( ABoK#1049) shown by Ashley, would probably prefer the similar tying method of the pet loop A shown in the attached pictures.
  There are two possible advantages of this method : First, we start from an axially/mirror symmetric form ( the one shown in the first picture ) - therefore we can easily tie and inspect the one "left-hand" bight and the one "right hand" bight we are going to need. ( The "first" will become a part of the main nipping loop, and the "last" will become a part of the collar around the eye legs.) Second, we start from the initial stage / image of the common bowline, which is familiar to most knot tyers. Ashley did the same thing in ABoK#1037 and ABoK#1049.

   

struktor

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2013, 08:27:07 PM »
My suggestion.


struktor

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2013, 08:29:49 PM »
What is the name of this knot?

roo

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2013, 10:14:59 PM »
What is the name of this knot?
It looks to be just a Butterfly Loop:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html

Just dress it a little.
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X1

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2013, 10:22:55 PM »
   Hi Struktor,

   The loop you show is an "Englishman knot" ( an Alpine Butterfly loop, in particular ) - one variation of those knots, because we can tie quite a few similar but distinct ones. The main characteristic of this family of eyeknots, is the two interlinked overhand knots, each tied between an end and an eye leg. Those two overhand knots can be interlinked in a number of more or less symmetric ways :  at the end, the tight knot, the "first" overhand knot can be "above" and the "second" "below" the other, or they can remain "side-to-side" to each other. Of course, the interesting thing in this particular loop is that it is TIB (1). However, it is not a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable ( PET ) eyeknot, so it is not as versatile as in many other bowline-like eyeknots of about the same complexity. I always start from the demand of a PET eyeknot - not a TIB eyeknot -, and, in this thread, I was happy to show that we can have our cake and eat it, too - but the cake is always the same, the bowline, not a TIB loop.
   Having said that, there is no question that most "Englishman knots" are so symmetric ( because of those two more or less symmetrically placed overhand knots ), that they are very well balanced, and good looking, indeed.
   ( Even if you wish to place and fix the two eye legs in the relative position to each other you show, you do not need the "third" closed bight at picture #3 - you can well re-arrange them at the very end. )

http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly

Ruby

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2013, 03:53:31 AM »
seems easy, yet much difficult.

can not tie it without looking at the picture after trying so many times :(

struktor

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X1

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 10:04:43 AM »
can not tie it without looking at the picture, after trying it so many times :(

At
http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly
there are 5 other methods of tying this knot - I can think of 5, at least, different ones, and, if you search in this Forum, you will find even more !  :) Do not look at the pictures : try to "see" and understand the structure of the knot, so then you will easily be able to reproduce it following any "method" that suits you better - just as you did with the Jug Sling knot.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 10:06:27 AM by X1 »

Ruby

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2013, 02:17:35 PM »

...
 if the first bight is a "right-hand" one, the last is a "left-hand", and vice versa.
...


   I believe that people accustomed to the tying method of the Span loop ( ABoK#1049) shown by Ashley, would probably prefer the similar tying method ...


Ashley did the same thing in ABoK#1037 and ABoK#1049.
   



at first I didn't get this.

now I got it.

so , you first post a left handed one,
 and then you post the first step to tie a right handed one.


I see . it's almost the same method as span loop #1049,
just add a twist to the top loop and the bottom loop.




now it's much easier :)

the tail is really "locked in between the first curves of the standing part AND the returning eye leg"!



X1

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2013, 03:01:24 PM »
it's almost the same method as span loop #1049,

   I had added the first picture, where the two bights have not approached each other yet, because it shows their mirror symmetry, right from the start.  So, all you have to do, is to insert the "last" bight ( the one at the right side of the picture ) half way through the "first" bight ( the one at the left side of the picture ), without twisting it - just by moving it parallel to itself. Doing this, you avoid the need to twist it after you had inserted it into the "first" bight, because, if you do the twisting at this stage rather than right from the beginning, you run the danger to twist it the wrong way...
   Notice that I decided to show this method only after you had shown your "similar" method - meaning, starting from the first step of tying a "common" bowline - for the Jug Sling. In general, I do not show specific methods of tying knots, because it seems that every knot tyer ties the same knots in a different way. However, in this case, a method that starts from the first, familiar stage of tying a "common" bowline should perhaps be suggested, because it reminds us what this eyeknot really is : a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable eyeknot ( PET ), which happens to be tiable-in-the-bight (TIB), too. One can tie it as an end-of-line bowline-like loop, or as a midline loop, according to the circumstances. As I said, in practice ( when I have am not forced to tie it through a ring, but only around a bollard), I have seen that I prefer to tie it as a midline loop, even at the end of the line - perhaps because I have been tying bowlines all my life, and I now want a little change... :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 03:04:38 PM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2013, 03:07:32 PM »
Struktor.

Thank you for the links.
I only wish we had more like this one > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3fHYGY3YTo !

SS

roo

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2013, 03:12:52 PM »
I only wish we had more like this one > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3fHYGY3YTo !
How often does anything like this occur in real-world use, especially with the size of rope shown?
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Ruby

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2013, 04:03:55 PM »
...
 So, all you have to do, is to insert the "last" bight ( the one at the right side of the picture ) half way through the "first" bight ( the one at the left side of the picture ), without twisting it - just by moving it parallel to itself. Doing this, you avoid the need to twist it after you had inserted it into the "first" bight...

well, I added a twist to the last bight ,
just to avoid the need to twist it after  I had inserted it into the "first" bight.
anything wrong?

at first I tried to just insert the last bight without twisting,
but then I find it still need additional twisting to dress it right.


" without twisting it - just by moving it parallel to itself."

I see. the point is to get it parallel , either twist before or move it after

at first I didn't know, and you didn't say, that "all you have to do, is to insert the last bight..." :)
now  I think I get it. both easy. much easier than that three loop method.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 04:24:50 PM by Ruby »

X1

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Re: Two pairs of pet TIB twin eyeknots
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2013, 06:20:00 PM »
well, I added a twist to the last bight ,
anything wrong?

   I believe that it is easier and safer, too ( you do not run the danger to twist the first or the second bights the wrong way...) if you form and inspect both bights at the same time, right from the start - so that you will not have to "add" a twist to the "last" bight at a later moment.. I mean, it is perhaps easier, simpler and safer if you retain the God-given mirror symmetry of our hands during as much of the tying procedure as possible. I do not know if I will be able to describe it even by pictures, but I will give it a try ;
   1. Grasp the line with both hands. Place your index fingers under the line.
   2. Twist both your wrists in the easiest way - that is, the way that retains the mirror symmetry of your hands. The line will be wrapped around your index fingers, and it will form the two mirror-symmetric bights.
   3. Now you have to pull your index fingers out of the bights, and start using your thumbs - octopuses should have been a newer model, evidently !
   4. Hold the crossing points of the two bights between your index fingers and your thumbs, and translate the one bight towards the other - there is no need for any additional twist.
   5. Now you hold the two bights, you can easily push the "last" through the "first". When you will do it, you will grasp the half-reeved "last" bight with the thumb that was used to hold the "first" one, so your right hand would be free to grasp the main bight of the loop, reeve it through the "last" bight, and complete the tying. Alternatively, you can hold both bights between the index finger and the thumb of your right hand, and use the left hand to reeve the main bight. I prefer to use the right hand for this, so that, when I have formed the loop, I can keep holding the standing end with the same hand I was holding it in the previous phase, and dress it with my "good" right hand...

   
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 06:42:37 PM by X1 »