Author Topic: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?  (Read 9387 times)

msjayhawk

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Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« on: April 04, 2013, 05:53:42 PM »
I was looking for name an old Portugese Rigger showed me offshore one time. He called in a bowline going and coming. I have seen similar, but they do not look quite the same. It is very easy to tie and remember. Does anybody know the name of this knot?

Thanks,

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 07:36:13 PM »
Greetings, msjayhawk!    :)

I've tried going & coming and am not yet arriving
at what your two images might be showing me ?!     :o

Can you please re-photograph the knot with it loosened
enough to show the crossings unambiguously?
(Just a little loosening all around should suffice.)


Cheers,
--dl*
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msjayhawk

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 08:41:51 PM »
Here you go! Appreciate the help. I really love this knot because you can tie it so fast and it is easy to remember....

- Russ

msjayhawk

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 09:22:24 PM »
Here is a quick video of tying it. You just make a long loop (bite), Flip the end over, Twist the two inner pieces twice and reach through the center of the twist and grab the back end of the loop and pull through..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh3-uC94aA

-Russ

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 09:51:11 PM »
Amazing, but I think that this is what I'd come up with
(but have untied that, now)!  And I untied it w/o ends,
so confirmed that it's TIB (Tiable In-the Bight [<-nb]).

The "coming & going" aspect is what I expected from the
title of the thread; but I'm not willing to accept that this
knot actually is a *bowline*, as it stands --as I want the
loop (circle) central to the knot, not left in its tail, loaded
only on one end by half the load.  There are two collars,
of a sort, but I'm chary of the one fed directly from the
eye (but have not played with this in rope and any serious
load).


Thanks,
--dl*
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X1

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 06:16:12 PM »
   This knot is the loop version of the Mike s fancy bend - shown at the attached pictures (1). The fact that it is a TIB loop is very interesting, indeed - and it is the only thing that justifies the "wrong" passage of the returning eye leg outside the nipping loop ! I have tried the bend as well as this post-eye-tiable eyeknot in the past, but in the symmetric form of Mike s fancy bend, not in the one shown in this thread. It had not occurred to me that, braking the symmetry, the knot could be dressed in a more stable form... As I remember, I had concluded that, although the standing part s first curve is one of the widest we have in symmetric bends, the knot s nub is not sufficiently stable : it is prone to various deformations, depending on the loading pattern. However, in the more stable and bowline-like form shown in this thread, it is stable, so I guess we should examine it more carefully.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3585.msg20510#new
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 06:17:07 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 10:33:37 PM »
  I have tried the same trick to all the other bends shown at (1)( i.e., to brake the symmetry, and shrink the one link of an Axis-type bend, so it degenerates into a nipping loop - and then use this stable knot as a base for a post-eye-tiable loop ). No luck ! I have not met anything interesting, that could be used as a base for secure double collar, "coming and going" bowline-like eyeknot. It seems that the most interesting such eyeknot is the one based on Mike s fancy bend, presented in this thread, - and only because this is the only such knot that happens to be tiable-in-the-bight. See the attached picture for two examples of "coming and going" eyeknots, based on two other Axis-type bends.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3585
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 10:35:44 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 10:26:43 AM »
   Pictures of the Coming & Going bowline - on a white background !  :)  The standing end is indicated by the yellow circle.
   We do not have many TIB secure bowlines - so this one should not be ignored !
   I can not say if its tying method, shown in (1), is easy , or tif it is he simplest one possible. It seems that every knot tyer ties the same knots with different ways, and this is true in the case of TIB knots, too.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh3-uC94aA

P.S.  I call it "Coming & Going", and not the reverse - it comes more easy/natural to me, but other people may think otherwise. The name denotes the reciprocating motion/flow of the working end, as it forms the nipping turn AND the two collars - I don't see why the "going" should be before the "coming" ?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 10:48:28 AM by X1 »

James Petersen

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 03:54:09 PM »
When tied in the exact same manner as the video, but dressed differently, this knot is known as the Jug Sling (ABOK #1142).

The jug sling was the first knot learned to tie properly and the tying method was exactly the same, except when tying the jug sling, the  part that crosses the knot perpendicular to the standing ends is not tightened over the knot itself. It is rather pulled toward the standing end and acts as one of the two lines/parts that go around the jug/jar/bottle on the side of the standing ends.

It is a simple matter to re-dress the same knot -- tied in the same manner as that shown in the video -- into a jug sling.

I have always loved this knot above all others. My uncle, who was a cattle rancher in British Columbia, showed it to me, complete with this method of tying, when I was nine years old. He referred to it as the hackamore knot. This method of tying is, in my experience, the absolute fastest method of tying a jug sling/going and coming loop/hackamore knot. It is nice have it receiving more attention at the pinnacle of the knot-tying world. :)

-- JP
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 04:40:31 PM by James Petersen »

X1

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2013, 05:44:43 PM »
When tied in the exact same manner as the video, but dressed differently, this knot is known as the Jug Sling (ABOK #1142).
   This statement is based on the ( very wrong ) idea that, when two knots have the same topology, they are the same knot...
   The Jug sling is a different knot from Mike s fancy bend, which is a different knot from the TIB bowline - although they have the same topology. In physical  / practical knots, topology does not determine geometry in a unique way, as was shown time and again (1).
   "Dressing" of knots is NOT like dressings of people  :) , where one can change his/hers dresses without changing him/herself ! 
    I guess that, if the relation between the jug sling and Mike s bend was sooo close, Miles would had discovered the bend before Mike... Personally, although I knew the Axis knot ( M. A22), I had never thought of the Mike s bend - and, even when I learned Mike s bend, and tied the corresponding PET eye-knot, I had not arrived at the "coming and going" bowline - because one has to break the initial symmetry of the bend, which is not such a straightforward idea / transformation !
   So, which exactly was the knot your uncle was tying ? The jug sling, the symmetric bend, or the TIB bowline ? If it was the TIB bowline, can we trace the name hackamore knot / bowline in the past, from your uncle, or any close relatives, colleagues or friends ?
 
    1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4201
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 05:46:30 PM by X1 »

James Petersen

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2013, 06:56:04 PM »
When tied in the exact same manner as the video, but dressed differently, this knot is known as the Jug Sling (ABOK #1142).
   This statement is based on the ( very wrong ) idea that, when two knots have the same topology, they are the same knot...
   The Jug sling is a different knot from Mike s fancy bend, which is a different knot from the TIB bowline - although they have the same topology. In physical  / practical knots, topology does not determine geometry in a unique way, as was shown time and again (1).
I make no claims about Mike's fancy bend.
Quote
"Dressing" of knots is NOT like dressings of people  :) , where one can change his/hers dresses without changing him/herself ! 
Here I would disagree. Put on a three-piece suit and take a walk on a downtown street. Then go home and change into a swimming suit and flip flops and take a walk following the same route you followed the first time. Your behavior and the behavior/reactions of those around you will be markedly different -- same person, different dressing, different personality -- you have changed yourself.  ;D
Quote
    I guess that, if the relation between the jug sling and Mike s bend was sooo close, Miles would had discovered the bend before Mike... Personally, although I knew the Axis knot ( M. A22), I had never thought of the Mike s bend - and, even when I learned Mike s bend, and tied the corresponding PET eye-knot, I had not arrived at the "coming and going" bowline - because one has to break the initial symmetry of the bend, which is not such a straightforward idea / transformation !
Again, I make no claims regarding Mike's bend and the Axis knot.
Quote
   So, which exactly was the knot your uncle was tying ? The jug sling, the symmetric bend, or the TIB bowline ? If it was the TIB bowline, can we trace the name hackamore knot / bowline in the past, from your uncle, or any close relatives, colleagues or friends ?
I also make no claim regarding the discovery/invention of the knots.

As to which knot we were tying, the jug sling or the bowlng coming and going, I cannot say. We never drew them up far enough for it to become the knot in the OP. (A loose jug sling can be drawn up into the knot in question by holding both standing parts and pulling on one leg of the loop. Perhaps the loose jug sling can be thought of as similar to a germ cell -- it can take either form, depending on what is required at the time.)

I would also be interested in hearing whether this knot was actually used and, if so, where and how.

BTW, is a turk's head still a turks head when dressed as a mat and thrown on the floor? Maybe we should call it a turks towel.

So, what exactly is/are the  knot/knots below?  (Actually, they are the same knot run through by an ill-mannered chopstick.)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 07:31:37 PM by James Petersen »

X1

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 08:39:54 PM »
I make no claims about...
   You make no claims about insignificant matters, who discovered what, but you do make claims about most important issues - as if two topologically equivalent knots are identical knots.
   If you follow this most erroneous reasoning, you will claim that Mike s bend, a symmetric BEND, is the same knot as the "coming and going" bowline  - a TIB EYE-KNOT - two things that are geometrically, formally, structurally and functionally different ! Would you go so far as to claim the same thing for the two knots shown in the thread about "bi-stable knots"
   And, as if you had solved this "easy" issue, you are quick to proceed (= jump ) into a more difficult one... :)  OK, I will try to answer as I can : Supposing that the chopstick remains immovable in space, the second knot tied around it is a HITCH, while the first one is a BEND. Moreover, the distribution of tensile forces inside the two knots is much more different - if we could "see" those tensile forces running through the ropes, we would had realized it at once. So, the structure of the two knots is different. Different forms, different functions, different structures, what else do we need to declare two things different ? If we start disregarding such differences, we would arrive at a world with very few things, in no time !  :) 
   Is the slipped version of a knot the same as the un-slipped one ? Is a very loose knot, where the strands can re-arrange themselves almost randomly  /freely into the knot s nub, the same as a tight one ? I have no idea ! We should be careful not to disregard important characteristics, but also to understand that that there are "things" out there, indeed, that have primary and secondary qualities - although they may differ in many, or even all, of their secondary qualities.
   Which are the primary, and which are he secondary qualities of an object ? Good question !  :)  The answer is very easy, although it is not evident : The primary qualities of an object are those which we have to distinguish, in order to use this object for our own purposes - and, at the end of the day, in order to survive. When a tiger is coming after you - or if you are going to it - you do not have to distinguish the number of stripes, or nails, or teeth, to decide what is this thing, and then act accordingly. A tiger is a tiger, and, for you, it is the same tiger, even if it has fewer stripes, nails or teeth ( as long as it has enough to eat you alive ). If you fail to sort the thing you see under the label "tiger" = "run the hell away from it", because it has fewer stripes, nails or teeth, you will not survive - and so there will be no descendant of you, who, some day in the future, will claim that a knot does not exist per se, and it is only "knotted material" !  :)  Although in most cases the geometry of a knot can have no severe consequences, its structure and/or its function always does - so each of them is most important for us, so we consider both of them as primary qualities, belonging to something different from the rest of the Universe, an object we call a knot. For the worm, an apple is nothing but the edible material around it which it will devour, but for us it is an isolated, individual object we call apple, and its existence is not depending on the worm, the apple tree, the theory of universal gravitation, or the apple pie the mother of the physicist who discovered it by watching the apple falling from the tree is going to make for her beloved son.
   Of course, if you call the bend and the eye-knot with the same name, you are not going to die ! But if you start to think it is the same thing, you will not proceed much further in order to understand how those rope-made mechanism work, you will soon be driven to the erroneous belief that everything that "works" is OK, and that you do not need anything else, you will start to avoid any effort to understand even one thing...and that may well kill you one day ! We are the descendants of human beings that isolated some characteristics of the physical world around and inside them, labelled them as essential or primary, sorted the totality of their experiences into individual "objects", and used the model of the world that was generated by this division of the whole into parts in a way that helped them survive ! If you see the World as a unified soup, with apples, worms, apple pies, forms of knots, strictures of knots, knotted materials, bends, hitches eye-knots, knot tyers, the girl friends of the knot tyers, the loans of the knot tyers, the cats, mice and monkeys or whatever else is pounding the knot tyers keyboard,...then the odds you will be killed at the next turn of the road are multiplied....
   We do not wish to examine things and distinguish different qualities in them in a detailed way, just as a pass time.. We do it because we first want to distinguish the real from the imaginary objects, then we want to separate the one World into many individual things / objects that we can use, then to understand how those things / objects are related to others, then to understand the World...Why ? Because understanding the World helped our ancestors to survive, so we, just like them, we are curious about it. OK, somebody will say, suppose we have understood the World, and we have managed to survive...What for ? THAT is the most easy question to answer, indeed ! To tie knots:) ( what else ? )

James Petersen

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 05:50:20 AM »
When tied in the exact same manner as the video, but dressed differently, this knot is known as the Jug Sling (ABOK #1142).
   This statement is based on the ( very wrong ) idea that, when two knots have the same topology, they are the same knot...
...
...
...
Let me rephrase that: When tied in the exact same manner as the video, but dressed differently, the resulting knot is known as the Jug Sling (ABOK # 1142).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 05:51:40 AM by James Petersen »

X1

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2013, 09:03:16 AM »
Let me rephrase that: When tied in the exact same manner as the video, but dressed differently, the resulting knot is known as the Jug Sling (ABOK # 1142).
What a difference a word can make !   :)
Mike himself had already mentioned this in :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4089.msg24520#msg24520
and I had replied, in MUCH fewer words, at the next post ::
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4089.msg24523#msg24523
In my previous post I said essentially the same thing in MUCH more words, connecting the issue with the recent discussion about the existence or not of the knot per se, and our ability or not to examine it as such, without reference to the "knotted material" used.
See also : http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4412
 

X1

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Re: Bowline Going and Coming Loop?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2013, 08:01:58 PM »
When tied in the exact same manner as the video, but dressed differently, this knot is known as the Jug Sling (ABOK #1142).

The jug sling was the first knot learned to tie properly and the tying method was exactly the same, except when tying the jug sling, the  part that crosses the knot perpendicular to the standing ends is not tightened over the knot itself. It is rather pulled toward the standing end and acts as one of the two lines/parts that go around the jug/jar/bottle on the side of the standing ends.

It is a simple matter to re-dress the same knot -- tied in the same manner as that shown in the video -- into a jug sling.

I have always loved this knot above all others. My uncle, who was a cattle rancher in British Columbia, showed it to me, complete with this method of tying, when I was nine years old. He referred to it as the hackamore knot. This method of tying is, in my experience, the absolute fastest method of tying a jug sling/going and coming loop/hackamore knot. It is nice have it receiving more attention at the pinnacle of the knot-tying world. :)

-- JP