Author Topic: Bowline transformations  (Read 4565 times)

alanleeknots

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Bowline transformations
« on: February 19, 2013, 07:59:02 AM »
Hi All,
Interesting Bowline can be transformed to few knots and loops, I only know Eskimo Bowline co's I do'nt have Ashley knots book yet, I will get one in the future. hope someone can tell me the name of the knots, and hope you like it.

Thanks alan lee
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 08:24:53 AM by eric22 »

Luca

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 01:45:09 PM »
Hi Alan,

Thank you! I was just about trying to figure out how to get a Carrick loop (ABOK # 1033) by manipulating a Bowline, and the loop in your first pic is a Carrick loop! (the yellow part of the rope should be considered  as the standing part).
In your third pic is visible a Blimp knot (ABOK # 582), which is closely related with the Zeppelin bend; the "short braid" at the bottom, can be similarly correlated with the Double Harness bend with opposite ends (ABOK # 1420, but with the tails "melted").
Thank you also for the Eskimo! I would never have thought of that!

                                                                                                          Bye!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 01:54:58 PM by Luca »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 08:10:55 PM »
Mr. Lee is a patient & kind man to preserve & present
the transformational paths from one form to another!
(I've made similar transformations, safeguarding my actions
by tying away the ends, thus ensuring that they play no role,
but my manipulations ran at random, continually, until I
recognized some geometry of interest.  Thus, I am certain
of the reality/possibility/relationship of the transformation,
but am liable to great frustration if trying to repeat it!)

NB : the very start, "bowline...", implies making a choice
--to wit : from which side of the eye will the tail be drawn?
(I got to Ashley's stopper & #1033 with the tail brought out
the side of the eye that the SPart lies on in making its crossing
of itself in forming the turNip --i.e., the direction that the
draw of the SPart upon the tail will tend to move it.  Going
out the other way I think is a distinct *knot* topologically.)
Whereas the cowboy/left-handed bowline doesn't present
this ambiguity --the tail is outside of the eye.

 - - - - -

This raises a question about how such topological transformations
should be done --about canonical forms & methods.  E.g., should
the end-2-end knot corresponding to the bowline (viz., the
sheet bend) have its tails tied together (and then, really, it's
the same transformation as for the eye knot) --and which way?!
Or, should the eye knot's eye legs be taken out of the "cookie-cutter
circle" and tied out of play, enabling the lesser transformations done
by "nub" --which would be the same for an end-2-end knot if all
its *ends* were held out of play (and maybe this is more to the
*essence* of the knot --its nub?!) ?

NB: there is a transformation to a symmetric form; this has
implications for *reversal* --such as turning an inline/directional'd
bowline to the opposite direction !!  --and wouldn't that be a quite
fun trick to pop on someone who had such a knot in line whose
ends were surely sealed & anchored!!  (I'm picturing Brion Toss
scratching his head ... .)


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 05:46:00 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 09:33:40 PM »
Hi Alan,  Thank you!
I was just about trying to figure out how to get a Carrick loop (ABOK # 1033)
by manipulating a Bowline, and the loop in your first pic is a Carrick loop!
(the yellow part of the rope should be considered  as the standing part).

Yep, bingo!

 :)

alanleeknots

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2013, 08:08:00 AM »
Hi All, 
Thanks for the reply Dan, Luca I have to thanks you instead, as you mention at  (New Knot Investigations ? Eskimo Bowline on a Bight)you had transformed common bowline into cowboy bowline,give me the opportunity to work on it, and I am just lucky to found few more knots out of it.
I was little rush to do the bowline transformation, co' I don't  much time,I wonder if there are more waiting to be discovered.

Thanks  alan lee
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 08:24:24 AM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 04:48:51 AM »
Hi All,
Today at work sitting in the crane waiting for material to come, feel little bore and I play with my rope, and I found another path for Eskimo Bowline to get back to the path system.
 
Thanks  alan lee

« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 05:27:41 AM by eric22 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 06:01:24 PM »
NB : In the first image presented in the thread, in the OP,
topmost of four, the tail crosses the eye OVER;
in all subsequent cases --including one in which the tail
is short and doesn't reach to cross the eye (but one can
see in the transformation that the eye is brought back
over this, so the crossing would have to be UNDER)--
the tail crosses UNDER.  I believe that these crossings
define different topological knots (by a rule that makes
a "closed curve" mathematical "knot" by fusing the
tail & SPart); and yet the distinction evaporates in
practice --something to ponder!

NB' : THIS orientation of the bowline is the RIGHT
side to show !!  --most books show the back side, alas.
(Compare/contrast w/presentations of the sheet bend.)


THIS THREAD BELONGS IN KNOTTING EXPLORATIONS.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 06:02:26 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Luca

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2013, 04:01:30 AM »
Hi Alan,

If I have figured out how to make the transformation from common Bowline  to cowboy Bowline, is only thanks to the method that you do see in your video on You Tube! But this transformation, although not involve any volunteer act of untucking and retucking , however,imply that one passes the end of the rope twice  through a bight(the collar of the Bowline;for those who are not familiar with the method by Alan Lee for the Bowline: looking at the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP83M-o9Ag0 ,at 1:15(Alan,thanks also for show the slow versions of your techniques in your videos) , Alan Lee passes the loop on his right(together with the end of the rope) through the bight on his left,exchanging their positions,:at this point he obtains the standard Bowline:one can do the same,but in the opposite direction,and obtains the cowboy Bowline(one can  obtain the cowboy Bowline also acting  exactly like Alan, but running the initial bight visible at the start of his video flexing it in the opposite direction).This implies that, starting from a Bowline already made​​, one can perform  backward the movement of Alan Lee,and then perform  this movement of "exchange" of the loop through the bight, but in the opposite direction.).Basically it's a trick that allows to alter the direction of the collar without implying the obvious solution of untuck the tail from the nipping circle and then retuck  it in the other way, but it is not a transformation that preserves the topology of the initial knot, as is the case in the transformations that you show us here.

                                                                                                                       Bye!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 04:05:11 AM by Luca »

SS369

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2013, 02:25:18 PM »


THIS THREAD BELONGS IN KNOTTING EXPLORATIONS.


--dl*
====

Is this a formal request?

SS

alanleeknots

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 03:47:50 AM »
Hi Dan, Thanks for the reply. When I look at the bowline always at this front side , she is more beautiful and easy to see how the structure work. According to your reply, see what you think if I put it this way. It has two ways to transform the bowline, front side or the back side. See photo


Hi SS369, Amazing X1 has created so many knots and provide wonderful analysis in this forum and he said Dan has tied all the knots in the universe. I have full respect for both of them. Yes, I would like to request my post to be moved to Knotting Explorations .

I would like to take the opportunity to thank SS369 and Xi for replying my messages and give me the valuable feedback.
Also thanks to my son Eric Lee for introducing me to this forum and correcting my broken english.
Thanks to this forum and all the reply to my post, without you I cannot get to this point.
Thanks for the reply Luca, you are a true gentleman.
Hi kd8een, I am sixty three year old man, you are so young, you have lots of potential. Keep tying knots, you can do it.

Thanks alan lee.

SS369

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 04:22:28 AM »
Thank you Alan, for your many contributions.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bowline transformations
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 06:14:24 AM »
When I look at the bowline always at this front side ,
she is more beautiful and easy to see how the structure work.
According to your reply, see what you think if I put it this way.

Indeed, I concur in your thinking; but please note how
very much the presentation of the bowline is NOT done
in this way.  Then, consider how often the knot is NOT
understood!  Yes, I'm suggesting that there is connection,
here.  (In my first encounter w/knots at an age when
one would think that someone who now --adulthood--
is so immersed in them and w/some degree of *gift*
in fiddling/figuring (and much fumbling finding) would
have then begun this interest; but, no !?  I only recall
thinking that the nipping of the loop in the sheet bend
was a neat, efficient locking; I did NOT --or I've now
recollection of ...-- recognize the bowline as being
that end-2-end knot with parts connected into an eye!?
My surmise that in part this was because the correspondence
wasn't presented directly --one *back* vs. one *front* side.
And I believe the the rockclimbing world's common belief
that the bowline is harder to "recognize" than the fig.8
eye knot
is in part because the wrong side is looked at
(granted, the latter doesn't have a "side" issue).

Quote
It has two ways to transform the bowline, front side or the back side.

??!  No, the common bowlline (#1010) has two ways of going
topological by which side of the eye the tail is taken out
of, as I noted above --which poses some interesting
ruminations to have about using topology for some kind
of knots cataloging (since it implies that two topological
knots could claim relation to the practical knot bowline)!
Separate from this is the tail-outside/Cowboy bowline.


Quote
Amazing X1 has created so many knots and provide wonderful analysis
in this forum and he said Dan has tied all the knots in the universe.

His reply I think was slightly defensive and missed my
point : that X1 can come up with the URLinks to most
any image we've posted --and then even to ones not
in this forum(or to a post) !!  --some gift of getting, that!
 :)

--dl*
====