Author Topic: Help with naming a Bowline variant  (Read 10895 times)

Pete K

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2013, 09:48:48 AM »
Tell me : is it customary (or even not advised against)
to ring-load a knot, as is what the French video
shows being the failure mode?

Ring loading in the way the French show in there film is not recommended and it is the practice of caving instructors like myself to teach clipping a cowstail/safety connection through both eyes/loops. Although still ring loading the knot is secure in this use. The additional benefit of using a 2 loop knot is that clipping into both loops creates a central attachment point for hoisting and belaying if required.
Clipping a single loop as the French film shows is a mistake of the uninformed and probably common. It has however, never led to a published incident, injury or rescue.

The tail in the video simulates the line forming the BotB coming from a bolt as part of a traverse line rigged to get a caver safely to the pitch head.

That's another knot for me to play with alpineer ta. The ideal 2 loop/eye knot in our eyes must be: Easy to learn and tie, easy to untie after load, easy to adjust, intuitive to use. Sipping in normal operation is not desired but a small degree of slippage is beneficial for shock absorbtion if a bolt were to fail with the active line loaded.
You are correct, the Fusion is a Karesh, I will change my paperwork and reports eventually to reflect this but I wrote most of it before the true name came out.

roo

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 04:16:28 PM »
: Easy to learn and tie, easy to untie after load, easy to adjust, intuitive to use.
I'd add a few requirements:  It should be easy to check and be rope efficient.

Which brings us back to using a separate short rope to act as a V shape with your anchors at the tops of the V and the main rope at the bottom of the V. 

If you don't want to use a carabiner at the bottom of the V with a clove or pile hitch (the easiest option for checking), you could use your main rope to form a friction hitch (like Blake's Hitch) around the bottom of the V.    Now that's easy equalizing and it will save you yards of rope in comparison to a double loop.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 05:23:11 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 06:27:42 PM »
Tell me : is it customary (or even not advised against)
to ring-load a knot, as is what the French video
shows being the failure mode?

Ring loading in the way the French show in their film
is not recommended
and it is the practice of caving instructors like myself to teach
clipping a cowstail/safety connection through both eyes/loops.
Ah, I see now in some older correspondence that some
sort of clipping-to-eyes is done (and I didn't question this,
then).  Okay.  Given this, though, I'd want a structure
that could endure the single-eye ring-loading --even though
that is an ill-advised practice (who can say when things go
wrong : perhaps just as one in reaching to make the 2nd
clip!).

Quote
Although still ring loading the knot is secure in this use. The additional benefit
of using a 2 loop knot is that clipping into both loops creates a central attachment
point for hoisting and belaying if required.

And not to tie into the dropped line?

Quote
The ideal 2 loop/eye knot in our eyes must be:
 Easy to learn and tie,
 easy to untie after load,
 easy to adjust,
 intuitive to use.

Sipping in normal operation is not desired but a small degree
of slippage is beneficial for shock absorbtion if a bolt were to fail
with the active line loaded.
How about a combination of knots?  Use some *guard*
knot such as a symmetric fig.9 and then the BotB?
The purpose of the "guard" is to thwart this potential slippage,
leaving the commonly used two-eye knot to work as desired.
Then, again, if the Karash knot proves to meet needs w/o
further precaution, it's a simple solution worth choosing.




Quote
You are correct, the Fusion is a Karesh,
I will change my paperwork and reports eventually to reflect this
but I wrote most of it before the true name came out.

--just to note the typo : "a" is the only vowel (twice).

I don't know of the French origination, but do know of the
Karash origination circa 2000.  ("fusion" is a vision from one
perspective; "Karash" is ad hominen ::  "What's in a name? ..."  ;) )


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X1

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 07:18:31 PM »
some testing of various double loop knots recently.

   There were some very interesting double loops presented recently in this forum, by IPAtch, Luca and Alan Lee ( Eric22 ). Perhaps they might be of some interest to you. See
 
   1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4168
   2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4191
   

Pete K

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 08:04:52 PM »
Alpineer -  I am unable to reply to PMs yet so thank you for the message, a very nice little trick I'd not seen before. Cheers.
X1 - I will have a read, ta.

alpineer

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 09:19:38 PM »
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C5%93ud_de_fusion According to this Wiki article the Fusion Knot was invented by Philippe Bence in 1992.

Here's the always entertaining Google translation:
Node called "fusion" was invented by caver ari?geois climber Philippe Bence in 1992 and proposed to replace the bowline after two tests in 20101 which showed that the double-bowline can drag and unravel when it is used in a single loop. The French School of Speleology in 2012 issued a video showing the danger, a caver, this skirt in one loop bowline double2. The inventor has proposed the name "fusion" because its realization is a compromise reached between the node and Mickey bowline double.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:44:55 PM by alpineer »

Pete K

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 09:31:07 PM »
So is it a Karash or a Fusion? Which one came first?

alpineer

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 10:05:48 PM »
Quote
So is it a Karash or a Fusion? Which one came first?

Mike Karash seems only to give credit to himself http://www.karashknot.com/index.html but my guess Monsieur Bence was first, so Fusion. It appears to me that Mr. Karash wants to put his signature on the knot when used as part of a 3 point harness.

Contacting the source(s) should shed more light on this matter.  http://www.petzl.com/fr/outdoor/petzlteam/philippe-bence

alpineer

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 10:40:22 PM »
One fellow has claimed that the Fusion Knot has been in use in Italy for 30+ years and known as Topolino(Mickey Mouse). However, Phil claims he could not find any formal references to support this claim.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:44:18 PM by alpineer »

Luca

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2013, 12:22:28 AM »
Hi alpineer (much like Andy, I spent (strictly alone, not to be mistaken for a sort of manic-compulsive,but,at least for the knots maybe I am!) much time practicing to realize the Butterfly at high speed with the Thumb Hook method:I love it!),

The"Topolino"(or"Orecchie del Coniglio"(literally translated"Rabbit Ears")),is the same(at least for what I know) of the classic"Bunny Ears"/Fig.8 double loop;frankly, I think that very few people here in Italy know the Fusion / Karash, and that are still less those who use it! :(


There were some very interesting double loops presented recently in this forum, by IPAtch, Luca and Alan Lee ( Eric22 ). Perhaps they might be of some interest to you.
 
 
There's a knot that bears my name, but that knot actually was presented by X1!

                                                                                                            Bye!
   


Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help with naming a Bowline variant
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2013, 06:36:07 AM »
Quote
So is it a Karash or a Fusion? Which one came first?

Mike Karash seems only to give credit to himself,
but my guess Monsieur Bence was first,
so Fusion.

It appears to me that Mr. Karash wants to put his signature
on the knot when used as part of a 3 point harness.

Contacting the source(s) should shed more light on this matter.

"Hunter's Bend" was published as "Rigger's Bend"
by Phil Smith (who claims to have discovered it for himself)
prior to Edward's discovering it for himself and gaining
publicity (prior to which, I, too, discovered it; I now thus
call it "SmitHunter's");
"Butterfly" was known in some places as "lineman's loop"
prior to Wright & Magowan's publicizing it to mountaineers,
and then at some later point "alpine" was tossed in as
a prefix by some others, for decoration (there is no
"alpine lineman's loop" though);
"Blake's hitch" was published by Heinz Prohaska some
decade plus prior to Jason Blake's discovering it; I don't
recall if Heinz had given it much of any name --oh,
some German-ish name that tickles my tongue (I now
like "ProhGrip").

Shall I continue?

I can attest to Mike Karash's presentation of that eye knot
seeking information about it, as his discovery, in 2000.
Absent any indication of it elsewhere, he proceeded to
publicize it and had it tested.

[edit to add ...]

I'm remiss in not citing prior discussion of this knot,
among American moles (cavers  ;D ) in CaveChat
--to wit:
www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6852

In this thread --1st pg.--, Kip presents yet another
dbl-eye knot which is also TIB (tiable w/o ends), though
I had to tie it first WITH ends and then prove this to
myself by untying w/o (and it remains for me to now
do this in *slow-motion* to work out a TIB method).
(I see this knot as having the same vulnerability to
ring-loading that the BotB showed, btw.)

And, re choosing a name, consider Mike's feelings :
Quote
"Karash" is a proud Polish family name ("Koresh" is Greek for "Cyrus").
I have 2 daughters and three granddaughters. My branch of the family name will end with me.
The knot name is a gift to them to remember and tell their children about.
:)


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« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:08:20 PM by Dan_Lehman »