Author Topic: Help identifying this knot  (Read 11550 times)

Davesea

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Help identifying this knot
« on: February 05, 2013, 02:10:26 AM »
It is like a constrictor with a couple extra hitches?

Here is a video showing how it is tied and how it is being used as a nock point on a bow string
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8EghWvyUcA&sns=em

Thanks
Dave
Seattle

roo

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 03:01:02 AM »
It is like a constrictor with a couple extra hitches?

Here is a video showing how it is tied and how it is being used as a nock point on a bow string
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8EghWvyUcA&sns=em

Thanks
Dave
Seattle
It looks to be a mild embellishment on the Constrictor Knot.  It could be tied with a complication of the coil-twist-fold method, but in this application, it doesn't look practical to use that method, and would be generally harder to remember for other applications. 

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 03:14:00 AM by roo »
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Davesea

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 03:17:11 AM »
Would it be considered "new"?

X1

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 06:39:13 AM »
It is like a constrictor with a couple extra hitches ?

It is just like the Constrictor, merged with two side Clove hitches. I think it is a very nice new hitch !

X1

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 05:45:01 PM »
   The knots that this hitch is remotely similar to, are the Double Constrictor (1), and the anti-symmetric spong knot (2), both shown at the attached pictures. However, it adds the "cross gartering" effect to this form of the Double Constrictor, and/or the "embracing tails under a riding turn" effect to this form of the Spong knot - so it is an altogether new knot. I have never tied it, although I have tied many similar knots - but my knowledge of the knotting literature is practically zero, so I can not really say if it is a "new" knot. At the end of the day, being a "new" or not knot does not matter at all - what matters is being a good, nice knot... and this hitch is a good, nice knot ! Congratulations to the knot tyer who revealed it to us.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.msg19042#msg19042
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3068.msg18353#msg18353

X1

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 07:24:35 PM »
  Two pictures of the " Adjustable string Nock " , tied around a pole, as a 4-wrap "Constrictor Nock" ( ? ).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 07:29:01 PM by X1 »

Davesea

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 10:02:01 PM »
That is the same name (constrictor nock) I suggested to Ryan (the inventor).  is there a way to register this new knot? Knot that it matters.....

X1

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 10:53:08 PM »
   I believe that this thread should be moved to the " New knot investigations " Forum. Then, if there are no presently active members that have seen this hitch somewhere, I guess that it would probably be a new knot, indeed. However, I do not know if the (anonymous) presentation of something in the internet, can have the value of a "legal""registration", of a "patent"...

James Petersen

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 12:51:15 PM »
Great idea. I don't like the brass crimp-on bowstring nocks that bowstrings are usually fitted with. This knot fits the bill very well. One possible variation is to use an overhand knot on each end rather than simply using a turn around the bowstring. This gives the knot more consistent bulk all the way around.

I don't have access to archery equipment where I now live, so I cant say how much trouble this will/would be to dress (it might be well nigh impossible),, but I would give it a try.

James Petersen

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2013, 12:52:42 PM »
Here is the same knot tied around a cylinder.

X1

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2013, 04:46:39 PM »
One possible variation is to use an overhand knot on each end rather than simply using a turn around the bowstring. This gives the knot more consistent bulk all the way around.

   Do not forget that this hitch is a friction gripping hitch. If it is not going to be loaded lengthwise ( and this particular application does not load it like this ), there is no point of having more riding turns than the minimum number required to secure / lock the ends. When a round turn of the rope goes "over" another, it loses its contact with the surface of the pole - and we need as much contact area as we can have. The very interesting variation you present, although it, too, has 4 wraps, it will grip the surface of the pole along a much smaller area than the original hitch. As shown in the video, the 4 parallel semi-circular arcs at the "back" side are doing a great job, a feature that is absent in your variation. I feel that the added security / locking of the ends it offers, cost too much in contact area.
   Having said that, I believe that your variation might be better when we have a lengthwise pull. The "cross gartering" of the round turns will help them grip the pole harder, when they will be elongated. One can also embrace the ends in a Strangle-way, instead of a Constrictor-way. The Strangle has the advantage that the ends are leaving the knot s nub parallel to the axis of the pole - so, if the one end is loaded, during a lengthwise pull, it will not change orientation, and it will not deform the knot s nub ( as it might happen with a Constrictor, loaded lengthwise...).
   
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 04:51:12 PM by X1 »

Davesea

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 06:04:22 PM »
James, One of the key characteristics of Ryan's constrictor nock is that you can spin it up and down the string to adjust your nocking point.  X1 did not show the back for the constrictor nock, but if you tie one you will notice that all four wraps, opposite the constrictor,  lay flat.  The advantage of having all four lay flat is so it will screw up and down the serving easily and be more secure. 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 06:08:41 PM by Davesea »

dfred

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 06:51:48 PM »
Would it be considered "new"?

To paraphrase someone who knows more on the subject than I do...  It is difficult to sustain claims of any simple knot being "new" given the tens or hundreds of thousands of years humans (and other animals) have been knotting.1

It has been my observation that once a knot user reaches a certain level of knowledge a synthesis begins that regularly leads to the tying of novel knots.  And by "novel" I mean in the sense that the user has never seen it before.  It may be axiomatic that if any one person (e.g. you) arrives at a solution for a knotting problem then someone else has probably already done so, or will do so.

If your nocking solution works well, then by all means use it, promote it, etc.   I think it would be more useful if the question being asked about so-called "new knots" in this forum was whether a particular knot already has a name.  If it does not, then a new one can be chosen.  This is probably the most useful function the experienced members here can provide.  If nobody comes up with a pre-existing name, I think "Constrictor nock" is a clever choice.  The only negative is that it could cause confusion because of how similar it sounds to the original.

But to illustrate my point about knots probably having been tied before...  I happened upon a similar knot last summer when lashing a ring onto a rod as part of rigging an anti-squirrel birdfeeder setup.  It is sort of the Transom knot version of the knot being discussed here for nocking arrows.  Here are some pictures I took at the time so I wouldn't forget it.  They were not taken to be aesthetically pleasing.







1Charles Warner in History and Science of Knots, p. 28.

EDIT: WL for Transom, minor typos
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 07:26:30 PM by dfred »

roo

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 06:52:43 PM »
James, One of the key characteristics of Ryan's constrictor nock is that you can spin it up and down the string to adjust your nocking point.  X1 did not show the back for the constrictor nock, but if you tie one you will notice that all four wraps, opposite the constrictor,  lay flat.  The advantage of having all four lay flat is so it will screw up and down the serving easily and be more secure.
I don't think any "screwing" is going on.  It's just a friction trick that should work for any binder:

"...the phenomenon of compound sliding.  For an example, set a book on a slight incline on which the book will stay put.  Now, start pushing the book sideways with a pencil, and you'll notice that it'll start sliding down the ramp slowly even though it couldn't before.  Friction forces act opposite of local relative velocity, so transverse motion takes very little force to occur.  This also accounts for why it is easier to insert a plug gage in a hole if you twist as you push."

from:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotjam.html
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James Petersen

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Re: Help identifying this knot
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 07:27:44 PM »
James, One of the key characteristics of Ryan's constrictor nock is that you can spin it up and down the string to adjust your nocking point.  X1 did not show the back for the constrictor nock, but if you tie one you will notice that all four wraps, opposite the constrictor,  lay flat.  The advantage of having all four lay flat is so it will screw up and down the serving easily and be more secure.
I don't think any "screwing" is going on.  It's just a friction trick that should work for any binder:



Actually, the serving on the bowstring where the arrow nocks acts as threads. In the video this is precicely how he moves the knot up and down -- by screwing it in either direction.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 07:31:20 PM by James Petersen »