Author Topic: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.  (Read 22538 times)

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 09:45:26 PM »
pole that's pretty dang slick

  I guess we should try all the hitches that are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull, on a slippery stainless steel tube. With some of those hitches the relatives diameter of the rope and the tube play a great role. Derek Smith has suggested :
high gloss chrome plated steel tube

the Well Pipe Hitch simply doesn't budge....It even held it's ground using only two round turns with 550 Paracord.

   I do not question your strength !  :) If you can manage to make a 2 turns Pipe hitch to hold, imagine what you can do with the TackleClamp hitch - when you will tie it properly/correctly. Because, as you have said once in a previous post - but perhaps have forgotten by now - the TackleClamp hitch uses a mechanical advantage that the Pipe hitch does not, so it can be tightened harder, and so it can withstand a greater lengthwise pull... in fact, a much greater lengthwise pull ! Also, with a multiple wraps Pipe hitch ( the one shown in ABoK and everywhere else, and the only one that can hold without having to be tightened by a weight lifter... :)), one can pull the one only end of the "coil tube". That places a limitation on the amount of tightening of the coils that are far from the standing end, because of the reverse capstan effect. On the contrary, at the TackleClamp hitch you can pull both ends, the one after the other, so they will be no round turns that will not be tightened. Moreover, because of the "locking" of both those ends, you can have any tensile forces inserted into the round turns be "locked" within the knot, and be ready to prevent the round turns from becoming elognated, when they will be dragged by the lengthwise pull. 

  I repeat : Even ONE turn Pipe hitch ( if one can call still this "thing" with this name...) can hold , if it is tightened enough ! So, we do not need any other hitch than this "thing", do we ? :) The friction hitches based upon many round turns have greater gripping force, EITHER when they are tensioned more, OR when they are tied with more turns. You prefer to wrap the pole with one or two round turns, tighten those round turns with your great strength, and then secure this "thing" with two half hitches ( because this is all what you do, this is all what is hidden in the pompous name "Well Pipe hitch"...). A less strong - but not less clever - guy, would prefer to tie the same knot with many more turns, and dispense with any need to use any strength whatsoever. I have attempted yet another road, that was not taken till now : I use just a few round turns, but I pull them from either of the two ends of the "coil tube" with a moderate strength, using a mechanical advantage - similar to the one achieved by a simple "block and tackle" machine ( hence the name " Tackle- ). Moreover, I use the mechanism of the "end-going-through-two-opposing-bights" "lock", to secure the induced tensile forces into the hitch, right at the moment they are applied during a pre-tensioning (by pulling both ends against the pole) phase - so those forces will be able to remain there even before or after the final lengthwise pull is applied. I "lock" the standing end as well as the tail - that is the meaning of a "tight hitch ". (1) The Double Cow hitch, which is the easiest hitch to tie after the Single Cow hitch, is a tight hitch, but does not use the mechanical advantage of a genuine TackleClamp hitch. Of course, as a tight hitch, it can be pre-tensioned, so it can hold much better than the "round turns plus two half hitches" not-bad knot, known by the pompous name " Well Pipe hitch". Now, I can understand that if you have not tied the Double Cow hitch, you can not tie the TackleClamp hitch either, because it is a more complex knot to tie than two Cow hitches, the one next to the other ( because this is all what is hidden in the less pompous, I believe, name " Double Cow hitch" ). So, I suggest the prudent thing for you to do is to delay the pompous phrases like "blows [TackleClamp] hitch out of the H2O" (sic), " the Tackle Clamp deal's been cuffed and stuffed" (sic), and whatever other clever phrase you are preparing to say... I advise you to respect this knot, because it is a superb knot, and we should respect such marvels works of nature, the KnotLand has offered to us, for free !  :)

P.S. I would have been glad to watch the rope, when you will tighten a TackleClamp hitch with the same force you tighten the "two-round-turns-and-two-half-hitches" "thing" and make it hold ! Or better, to listen to the rope - because it will swing, believe me !  :)

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4155.0
 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:59:34 PM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 12:06:58 AM »
Curiosity can cause testing, even if not scientific.

I tied both hitches on a 3/4 inch PVC pipe that had been waxed (for a prior project) and I will venture to say it is at least as slick and slippery as the poly'd painters pole and with no discernible compression or denting.

Here is what I found.
Both slipped and then established a firm hold as the turns elongated at approximately 100 pounds.

The tackleclamp hitch stayed put afterward and the well pipe hitch gave up all of its constrictive force.

The tackle clamp hitch is the knot construct to use, of these two, if you want a close to permanent hitch. It did require a fid to pick it loose to untie.

If you need/want an easily re-positionable hitch then the well pipe hitch succeeds.

I see an excellent use for the tackleclamp hitch and it is for use as a constrictor binding for mending hose connections, binding multiple pieces of fibers, etc.
The amount of tightened force generated and how much of it is retained is impressive.

SS



X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 12:38:12 AM »
   Let me add two comments to your report, SS369.
   1. As shown at your (first) picture, one can pull the TackleClamp hitch, say, downwards, by pulling the upper side ( left, at your picture ), or the lower side ( right, at your picture ) free end - or by somehow connecting them, and pulling them both. I have seen that, if you wish the minimum turn elongation ( circular round turns turning into oblong elliptical ones ), it would be better to hang your load from the upper side free end. ( Not very scientific an observation, though... :)).
   2. When I say that one should pull the ends "the one after the other", I mean to pull the ends in an alternating way, first the first, then the second, then again the first, and so on...I do not mean literally "pull the first end, then pull the second end, period". So, one should tighten the TackleClamp hitch by pulling the first end a little bid, then the second end this much, then again the first end a little bid more, and so on - until he can not pull any end any more - just as we do when we tighten multiple nuts. Otherwise one can run the danger to pull the first end all the way to the end, and have a hitch where the two opposing bights have "kissed" each other, wthout the hitch having been tensioned to the maximum degree. I wonder if TMCD has done something like this with his tests on paracord, because, with a slippery rope like paracord, this mistake will lead to a prematurely "closed", not-maximally tightened hitch.
  3. Less is more - but not always !  :) If you wish a really tight hitch, on very slippery poles, it will do no harm (  :) ) to use the (5, 6) TackleClamp hitch, shown in a previous post ( Reply# 23, (1)).
  4. If you do not want a semi-permanent tight hitch, you have to tie the slipped version of the TackleClamp hitch, which is also a TIB knot (2). I have suggested that, to learn to tie this hitch, it would be better to tie the non-slipped version first - but one should better tie it near one end of the pole, so he can easily push and then pull out one round turn, and release it.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26151#msg26151
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.msg24500#msg24500
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 01:10:04 AM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 01:36:33 AM »
I tied it as you have ably described, with the parts arranged snugly and then I pulled both legs equally and got it to where I couldn't tighten it any more bare handed as shown in my photo of it.
I tried pulling each leg, as oriented in that picture, individually and then both paired as one.

I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding. As you can see it did not elongate very much at all and I think most of the elongation is due to the cord itself. Some specs rate the percentage of 550 paracord (milspec) at 30% and that is what I have used.
It is somewhat of a "shock cord" and the design, well is for parachutes.

Paracord used in space on the Hubble> http://www.udel.edu/PR/Messenger/97/3/BLANKET.html

I have not tried the slipped version, but any more tests like the one I did, I will.

S
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:03:54 AM by SS369 »

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 03:14:43 AM »
then I pulled both legs equally and got it to where I could tighten it any more bare handed

  I usually pull the one leg after the other, a little bit harder each time, and then pull the ONE only leg as much as I can, both hand and feet against the pole  :), and then repeat the same thing for the other leg.

I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding.

   I feel the exact opposite !  :) I believe that, unlike we do with some others, we must prevent all the round turns of this particular friction gripping hitch from being elongated, as much as we can, right from the start - so the pulling of the end stemming from the higher side ( the left side in your picture), just because it does elongate the round turns less, it offers more resistance to the initial sliding. The initial friction is generated by the tension already present within the round turns, so there is no point of having them inclined at the initial stage. Of course, they will become elongated, and inclined, by the presumably much greater final lengthwise pull, but I do not see any reason to allow them to be more elongated at the initial stage than they can be. That is why I advocate a pulling by the one leg, stemming from the higher side.
   The elognation of the round turns is useful at the rat-tail-stopper-like hitches ( ABoK#1755-1756-1758 ), but I do not believe it offers anything to the TackleClamp hitch - where the two ends of the "coil tube" are already tensioned. That is something that should be tested, of course...

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 03:30:07 AM »
I see an excellent use for the tackleclamp hitch ... as a constrictor binding for mending hose connections, binding multiple pieces of fibers, etc.
The amount of tightened force generated and how much of it is retained is impressive.

  As a arm-chair knot tyer  :), I can not predict the practical uses of this tight hitch ( or of any other simple knot, I have to say...). "History teaches us that sooner or later a purpose is discovered for everything that exists". I would suppose that it could also be used in place of the common lashings, to bind two (or even three) poles together ( bamboo pole lashings, is the first thing it comes to my mind...). Perhaps somebody would propose another use - corset tying, for example  :) - but I can not imagine all the possible situations a tight hitch like this can be utilized. I explore it as a structure, as a mechanism, but I am sure that, in the future, it will find its own way to solve some practical problems I can not foresee now.

SS369

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 04:03:18 AM »
then I pulled both legs equally and got it to where I couldn't  <Edited tighten it any more bare handed

  I usually pull the one leg after the other, a little bit harder each time, and then pull the ONE only leg as much as I can, both hand and feet against the pole  :), and then repeat the same thing for the other leg.

I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding.

   I feel the exact opposite !  :) I believe that, unlike we do with some others, we must prevent all the round turns of this particular friction gripping hitch from being elongated, as much as we can, right from the start - so the pulling of the end stemming from the higher side ( the left side in your picture), just because it does elongate the round turns less, it offers more resistance to the initial sliding. The initial friction is generated by the tension already present within the round turns, so there is no point of having them inclined at the initial stage. Of course, they will become elongated, and inclined, by the presumably much greater final lengthwise pull, but I do not see any reason to allow them to be more elongated at the initial stage than they can be. That is why I advocate a pulling by the one leg, stemming from the higher side.
   The elognation of the round turns is useful at the rat-tail-stopper-like hitches ( ABoK#1755-1756-1758 ), but I do not believe it offers anything to the TackleClamp hitch - where the two ends of the "coil tube" are already tensioned. That is something that should be tested, of course...

I feel that the elongation of the TC hitch by pulling the lower cord (right side in my picture) will do a better job of imparting increased tension, After Maximum Tightening, than if the upper cord is pulled because one doesn't want to compress the coils. In my brief experience with this I feel there will be no appreciable gain in constriction by pulling the upper tail.
All this is germane to the orientation in the photo I posted.
Just  my opinion if this is used as a hitch to resist lengthwise pulling tension.
And I'll happily tug away to try and confirm this. ;-)

SS
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:05:00 AM by SS369 »

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 12:00:01 PM »
And I'll happily tug away to try and confirm this. ;-)

  Nice ! Go on !  :)  Just try to tie the hitch the same way in both cases - i.e., pull each end with the same force to pre-tighten them, say 25 kg and 50 kg (?). I guess that TMCD pulls them with 75 kg, or even more, but we are interested in a hitch that will be tightened by the average person - not a 6 ft 6 in, 280 lb one !  :)
   I can not estimate the effects of the relative diameters of the rope and pole. I use 1/2 inch ropes and 3 inch tubes, but I do not have any idea about which would be a more representative to the average use pair of diameters...

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 03:07:29 PM »
I'm going to try later on this evening to see if I'm tying it or actually tightening it incorrectly. The Tackle Clamp Hitch has tons of MA, that much I gather and it is weird that I can move it up and down the pole with what I would consider half of my strength and couldn't even budge the Pipe Hitch. I tie a Pipe Hitch very snug though, there's absolutely no seperation in my coils before I start to pull lengthwise on it...and as I mentioned before, a critical part of correctly tying a good Pipe Hitch is in the final stage when you tie the Clove Hitch or Cow Hitch to the Standing End. That Clove Hitch has to be jammed down on top of the pipe itself, seated snugly in the arrangement or you will get a bad result.

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 03:37:57 PM »
you tie the Clove Hitch or Cow Hitch to the Standing End.

   The usual way of the Pipe hitch is to tie two half hitches at the one end of the "coil tube". However, I am sure that one can improve on this. I used to connect the Standing end to the tail by a simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, but I could nt pull the ends against the pole with that locking mechanism...
   Could you, please, tie a multi-coils Clove hitch ( shown in the attached picture)(*), and a Pipe hitch, with the same number of wraps, tension them with the same force, and report your results ? In both of those hitches, the diagonal element prevents the adjacent individual round turms to revolve/slip the one relativelly to the other ( so this might be cinsidered as another way one can insert some pre-tensioning within them ), but I do not know in which of those two hitches this mechanism is more efficient.
   I see that you bite into this issue of friction gripping hitches !  :) I am sure we can settle any question about which is more efficient to withstand a lengthwise pull, by a few tests. ( And I have already declared what a lousy experimentalist I am, havent I ?  :))
   I have to mention that the TackleClamp hitch is not only a fine friction gripping hitch, but a powerful binding knot as well. That was the meaning of the "Clamp" in its name. It is much more tight than a single or a double Constrictor, which were considered the tightest hitches/binders we had till now.

*. One has to hang the load by both free ends of the Multi-coils Clove hitch, to exploit the tensioning of both the "upper" and the "lower" "coil tubes", and so have the better results.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 03:49:08 PM by X1 »

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 05:12:39 PM »
I've always liked your Multi Coiled Clove Hitch...simple, easy and effective. I'll be back on here later, the rental house next door needs my plumber to fix it and my pole barn's calling.

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2013, 02:49:39 AM »
I tied both, The Tackle Clamp Hitch and Well Pipe Hitch on a different type of pole today and got similar results. I'm stumped and I'm positive that I'm tying the TCH correctly, I get plenty of MA etc., but can still move it along the pole. I can't budge the WPH, maybe there's no answer here, I don't know.

For the record, I can't budge the Multi Wrap Clove Hitch.

Edit...I just noticed that I tie the Pipe Hitch differently than what's shown on you tube. The guy on you tube makes three or four complete turns and then brings the WE down and across the face of those coils and ties a Clove Hitch on the pipe directly next to them. I tie it the way Ashley shows it in his book, the WE ties to the SE using a Clove or Cow Hitch.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 03:41:11 AM by TMCD »

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2013, 04:48:48 AM »
but can still move it along the pole. I can't budge the WPH, maybe there's no answer here, I don't know.

We do not know, but that does not mean there is no answer !  :) And we will find it !
1. I suppose you pull each end of the TackleClamp hitch with the same force you pull the end(s) of the Well Pipe hitch. Can you be more specific on the estimated magnitude of this force ?
2. Do you pull both ends of the WPH before you connect the standing end to the tail by whatever hitch you have chosen to use ? ( Ashley. at ABoK#504, does not use a Clove hitch or a Cow hitch ! He uses two half hitches. ) If not, and you pre-tighten the WPH hitch by pulling only one end, which end do you pull before you connect it to the other?
3. Which end of the TackleClamp hitch do you pull, to submit it to the lengthwise pull ? If you place the pole vertically, and you pull the hitch downwards, do you pull it by the "upper" or the "lower" end ? I suppose that you do not pull it by both at the same time, od course, because they stem out of the pole at diametrically opposed points, so such a "balanced" pull would drag it alongside the pole much more easily.
4. What are the diameters of the rope and the pole you use ?
5. Is the rope you use able to be flattened a lot ( of a hollow single braid construction, for example ). A flattened rope can grip the pole more efficiently than a round one, and that may be something the WPH exploits, but the TavkleClamp hitch does not to the same degree.
6. Is the standing end of the WRH and the TackleClamp hitch parallel to the axis of the pole, when you submit them to the lengthwise pull ? We are not considering diagonal or perpendicular pulls here.
7. Are the multiple coils of the WPH and the TackleClamp hitch the one next to the other, in contact, when you load the hitches ? ( If they are not, this would mean that they were not as tight as they could be.)
8. A picture of the two hitches, just before they are pulled along the pole, would be most helpfull. We can spear a lot of blah blah with a single picture !


X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2013, 05:25:20 AM »
   I would like to make a brief comment here, about something I have hinted in passing at another post. In a multi-wrap friction gripping hitch, a tensioned "diagonal element" that pushes the "higher" and the "lower" round turns towards each other ( and all the other in-between round turns in forced tight contact to each other ), can play a very important role. When the round turns are tightened, by a pre-tensioning action or by the loaded of the standing end itself during the lengthwise pull, the presence of this diagonal element will help to "lock" any tensile forces within the "coil tube" - because the adjacent "rings" of the round turns can not revolve the one relatively to its two neighbors - so it can not release its tension. ( This is a schematic description- there are no individual "rings" in the coil - but I hope it conveys the meaning of what I wish to say).
  At the Well Pipe hitch, as well as at the Multi-Wraps Clove, double Strangle and double Constrictor friction gripping hitches, this(those) diagonal element(s) can offer, in a limited degree, the same advantages of a "locking" mechanism of the standing ens and the tail, at a "tight" hitch. That element may enhance the effectiveness of the hitch, because, without adding more coils, it enhances the gripping power of the existing ones. I had tried to exploit this mechanism a little more, by the addition of a second and/or even a third diagonal element - they seem to keep the coils in contact, and they also push the embraced pair of ends that lie underneath them, so those ends are even better "locked" in their position, as "guardians" of the accumulated tensile forces within the "coil tube". (1)

1) See the pictures at a few relevant posts published at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22241#msg22241
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:29:56 AM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2013, 07:53:34 PM »
If you need/want an easily re-positionable hitch then the well pipe hitch succeeds.

I get plenty of MA etc., but can still move it along the pole. I can't budge the WPH, maybe there's no answer here, I don't know.

   It occured to me that I can answer to those two interested readers, with one only post ... :)

   If -, I repeat, if... in the minute/remote, as a probability, but existing, as a possibility, case - TMCD had been loading the TackleClamp hitch by pulling both ends - those two ends stemming from two diametrically opposed points of a "balanced" hitch - he would have discovered an easy way to translate the hitch along the pole, and so re-position it easily, as SS369 demands...
   In fact, this might even be considered as a pottentially practical advantage of the (3,4) form of the TackleClamp hitch, the original (4,3) form had not : We can easily re-position it along a pole, without even touching it. If it is tied on the top of the mast, for example, or on any other inaccessible point ( beyond arm s length, or into a cavity, etc. ), we can still re-adjust its attachment point / re-position it, up and down the tube, pipe, mast, spar, etc., by just pulling it by both ends. We can attach our load hanging it from the one end, and just have an auxilliary rope attached on the other end, just in case we wish to hoist our hitch to a lower or a higher point in the future. We might even have 3 auxilliary ropes, so we can re-position the hitch sliding it downwards or upwards along the pole, using two pulleys attached at its distant end.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 08:02:54 PM by X1 »