Author Topic: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.  (Read 22519 times)

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 08:54:36 PM »
Thanks for the pictures Xarax, I've never been able to fully figure out some of these knots and still not sure I'm tying this thing right. I've started with the Clove Hitch version 1-4, what's the difference in it and 5-8? This is obviously a pole gripping hitch? What other applications do use this for? I don't think I'm tying it right, doesn't seem to hold very well for me on a diagonal pull but I'm using paracord on a urethaned wooden painting pole used for painting walls.

I think I got it, the step in between numbers 4 and 5 was throwing me for a loop, it's a very subtle step. Man, I can crank this thing down like there's no tomorrow...I'm glad I finally figured this out. Disregard my above question Xarax....thanks for simplifying the tying technique. Jeez, and I call myself a master knotsman...far from it around here. lol.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:21:45 PM by TMCD »

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 09:17:00 PM »
This is obviously a pole gripping hitch?

   No... :) It is the best (= tightest) pole gripping hitch we have. For what a "tight" gripping hitch is, read (1).

   I don't think I'm tying it right, doesn't seem to hold very well for me on a diagonal pull

  It holds a lengthwise pull, - and a very heavy one. For just a diagonal pull, you can tie the common, easier to tie but less "tight", "snug" hitches.
  To tie the previous variation, that I now call (4,3) TackleClamp hitch ( where the 4 wraps side is smaller than the 3 wraps side ), read (2).
  If you tie those hitches enough times ( I need to tie any knot a dozen times, at least, before I feel confortable I have understood it ), I am afraid you will not going to tie any other tight hitch again !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4155.0
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.0
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:21:55 PM by X1 »

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 09:23:49 PM »
Sorry X, I figured it out as you were responding to my first question...see modified version. Great little hitch and it's got some serious mechanical advantage..I love it.

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 10:37:26 PM »
and it's got some serious mechanical advantage...

 The great advantage of the "tight' hitches is that, by securing ( = "locking") the standing end as well as the tail, they can retain any tensile forces that have been accumulated into them during a pre-tensioning phase - neither the standing end nor the tail can slip through the locking mechanism of the nipping bights. So, those hitchers will be less prone to a pronounced, detrimental deformation of their round turns later, when they will be confronted with a lengthwise pull.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:37:57 PM by X1 »

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2013, 02:29:40 PM »
I haven't tried all of your variations of the Tackle Clamp Hitch, but did try the original one I believe,(the one with multi wraps of orange cord) and believe it's probably your best work. I can actually get some of these variations to move diagonally when using paracord on a lengthwise pull on slick surfaces....I couldn't on your original work. Again, I haven't tied the Double Cow because I haven't figured it out yet, that's to be determined but it certainly looks promising. 

Anybody else feel free to chime in here, what's X's best work on this? I think the original version is but haven't tried a couple others.

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2013, 04:09:43 PM »
  The "original" (4,3) version might suffer from a premature "closure", where the two opposing bights "kiss" each other before the round turns are tensioned to the maximum possible degree ( 1 ). However, its "initial arrangement" might be more easy to remember, indeed,  because, intuitively, it seems more "natural" ( as shown in the series of pictures at (2)). At the (4,3) variation, you work on the 4 wraps side, which, when you pull the ends, shrinks in favour of the 3 wraps side, while at the (3,4) variation presented in this thread you work on the 3 wraps side : it is the 3 wraps side that is shrinking now, in favour of the 4 wraps side. I thought that this would be an advantage for this variation, because longer round turn paths on the 4 wraps side of the pole and shorter round turn paths on the 3 wraps side of the pole could only mean more contact area between the round turns and the pole, so more gripping power. However, the initial arrangement of the (3,4) variation presented in this thread might be a little difficult to remember correctly - it is not intuitively "natural" any more. That is why I attempted to show a simple tying method of it, starting from the Clove hitch...
   Do not let the number of round turns confuse you - any one of those two variations can be tied with more wraps, if we wish a greater yet gripping power. However, we should compare apples to apples - and hitches with the same number of wraps.
    The "simplified" TackleClamp hitches presented at (3), where the "initial arrangement"  is a Cow hitch, do not use any mechanical advantage like the (3,4) and the (4,3) variations. They are "tight" hitches, of course, and they have the advantage of being very easy to remember how to set up andto tie ( as they are "lockable" versions of the simple and the double Cow hitch ), but they can not be tightened as hard as the genuine TackleClamp hitches (4).     

1   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26013#msg26013
2   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.msg22523#msg22523
3   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.0
4   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24116#msg24116
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 04:57:17 PM by X1 »

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2013, 08:02:49 PM »
Am I the only one here who has better luck with the trusty Pipe Hitch? I've tied at least two of X's presented hitches for a lengthwise pull and theh Pipe Hitch blows X's work out of the H2O. I can easily move X's hitches lengthwise but simply can't budge a four turn Pipe Hitch....someone chime in here, tell me you're experiencing the same thing???

BTW, I'm tying these knots on a one foot long painters pole using paracord that is wooden with three coats of slick Polyurethane and X's work simply won't pass the test but I can't budge the Well Pipe Hitch, ABOK 504 to be exact.

Maybe your work is great with other materials X, I shall try different materials later today but it's struggling to hold water with today's modern paracord. Is there a secret method to tightening these hitches of yours?

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2013, 11:15:49 PM »
Am I the only one here who has better luck with the trusty Pipe Hitch?

   I believe that you are the only one that ties a Pipe hitch with n wraps, and compare it with a TackleClamp hitch with n-x wraps... :) (x = greater, much greater, than 2...). It may also be the case that you do not pre-tension the TackleClamp hitch, because, if you are accustomed to the Pipe hitch, you tend to tie those two knots with the same way... that is, leave them loose, and wait till they will be tensioned by themselves only afterwards, by the lengthwise pull, through the standing end. You have to pull both ends of the TackleClamp hitch, while with the Pipe hitch you can not do this - even if you wish !  :)

 
I can easily move X's hitches lengthwise but simply can't budge a four turn Pipe Hitch....someone chime in here, tell me you're experiencing the same thing???

   I experience exactly the opposite !  :)
   I do not see many 4 wraps Pipe hitches in the illustrations of this knot, probably because a 4 wraps Pipe hitch is such a poor gripping hitch... ABoK#504 has 12 (twelve) wraps, ABoK#1760 has 7 (seven), and ABoK#1761 has 10 (ten). So, I believe that you are the only one who has ever tied a 4 wraps Pipe hitch, that was not able to be budged - or you are the only one that was not able to budge a four wraps Pipe hitch !  :) I believe you did not understand that, in this thread, I have presented only the TackleClamp hitch with the minimum number of wraps to facilitate the learning of it - and I also believe that you have not tied the (3,4) TackleClamp hitch with the same number of wraps you tie the Pipe hitch, or whatever other common gripping hitch you compare to it. You said that

. I can actually get some of these variations to move diagonally when using paracord on a lengthwise pull on slick surfaces....I couldn't on your original work.

   The "original" work and the present work are one and the same thing ! The only difference is the relative size of the 3 wraps, compared to the 4 wraps. At a (3,4) TackleClamp hitch, we have longer 4 wraps and shorter 3 wraps than at a (4,3) TackleClamp hitch ( the "original" hitch) - so it is even tighter than the "original", where you said could not move the round turns diagonally...
   Tie all the hitches you wish to compare with the same number of wraps, and then jump into conclusions !  :)

   If you have speared a minute to read my previous posts or look at my previous pictures, you would have seen/read the ones with the paracord... I have tied those hitches on dozens of different materials. However, I always say that they work better with the nylon-based ones, especially if they involve more than the minimum  3 1/2 wraps - although that is something expected, not actually measured.
   When the TackleClamp hitch is even compared with the Pipe hitch, I can not but smile...  :) The Pipe hitch is inferior even to the simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, because its two ends can not pulled towards each other and secured in place, before the load is applied - the Pipe hitch is not a "tight" hitch. So, when a lengthwise force is applied, the round turns at the former tend to become much more elogngated ( elliptical) than at the later, and so their gripping power is diminished. Now, the TackleClamp hitch is superior even to to the simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, simply because this beneficial pre-tensioning of the round turns is enhanced even more by the mechanical advantage.
  However, I am not going to "defend" the TackleClamp hitch, simply because I am not able to do this - it is a superb knot, that is not on my level. There will always be people that, for their own, personal reasons, will try to deny the miraculous potential of this hitch, and they will "condemn" it, or they will keep silent on it, hoping that it will be forgotten ! :) ( I do not believe they are so short-sighted to expect it will ever be forgotten...). I have seen a similar "problematic" behaviour with the Gleipnir, or the Symmetric Sheet bend - so I am prepared to expect something like this with the TackleClamp hitch. In fact, it was "something like this " that helped me meet this hitch in the first place ! Knot4u was arguing that the Pipe hitch is better than the simple hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, and I thought that an ever tighter hitch would be one where the two ends would not only be kept tightly close to each other ( as at a "tight" hitch, where the standing end is secured ("locked") just like the tail), but they would be also brought to an ever tighter arrangement by the utilization of a mechanical advantage (1)(2)(3). So, who knows, may be the next guy who will question, for whatever reason, the tightest hitch we have to this day, will help me meet something even tighter, in this vast KnotLand !  :)

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22224#msg22224
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22246#msg22246
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22248#msg22248
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 12:01:58 AM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 01:28:30 AM »
   A (5,6) TackleClamp hitch should be compared to a 5 1/2 Pipe hitch - it has 5 wraps on the one side and six on the other. However, I think that we can turn a blind eye here, and compare it to a 6 wraps Pipe hitch. ( For the 4 wraps Pipe hitch, I refer to TMCD budging...)
   If anybody convinces me that a 6 wraps "trusty Pipe hitch"(sic)"blows the TackleClamp hitch out of the H2O" (sic), I swear to KnotGod I will focus all my attention to corset, shoelaces and tie tying, I will learn how to tie a trucker s hitch, at last,  :), and I might even become an expert on airplane tying !  :)
  Come one guys, somebody should grasp this opportunity !  :) It does nt come every day...  :) ( Regarding what will be my gain out of this, I can only say that I hope I will be relieved from my back pain... Less pain, great gain.)
 

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 06:05:44 AM »
X,
Your work is really good here and please don't get upset because it doesn't pass my test in paracord...I'm a really strong man at 6-5 280lbs. I have ZERO reason to lie, I can pull your Tackle Clamp hitch lengthwise when using paracord....I can not achieve this with Ashley's Well Pipe Hitch, no matter how much muscle, leverage, weight etc., I put into it.

I wasn't able to budge your Tackle Clamp when using some other cordage I have around my office, so it's probably good for most everything but paracord. The Well Pipe Hitch seems to be the one to beat right now, which shouldn't surprise anyone because it's actually passed the biggest test of all and that's the test of time.

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 08:06:43 AM »
The Well Pipe Hitch seems to be the one to beat right now, which shouldn't surprise anyone because it's actually passed the biggest test of all and that's the test of time.

   Time is not confined to the past, it is open to the future. It is a river, that flows.
   Any "hitch" with 10, or 100 or 1000 wraps will be unbeatable, in comparison to any 4 wraps hitch. Ashley had a good reason to show his Well Pipe hitch with more than 4 wraps. If you can not pull a Well Pipe hitch with 4 wraps, tied on paracord, you are not such a really strong man you believe you are !  :)
   You speak like the TackleClamp hitch is "a work" of somebody... It is not. It has just happened to me - by pure chance - to be the humble servant who copied it "from The Book" . :) If you have any complain about such a knot (or about an elegant mathematical theorem ), please address it to whom it might concern - the mighty God. :)
   You are not the only one who believes that the poor old Pipe hitch is/was something special... I had the same discussion with knot4u, at the thread I had mentioned (1, and next posts at the same thread). It was proved to be a fertile discussion at the time, but nobody steps into the same point of the river/time two times... :)

   "Ever-newer waters flow on those who step into the same rivers ."
   "Everything changes and nothing remains still ... and you cannot step twice into the same stream"
   "We both step and do not step in the same river. We are and are not."

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22224#msg22224

   P.S. I have just completed a new series of tests of the "trusty Pipe hitch" and the TackleClamp hitch, each with 4 and with 6 wraps, on paracord - the same material shown at Reply#8
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg25992#msg25992
   I have to report that, evidently, TMCD used a really strong glue with the Pipe hitch, and a really slippery pole, with the TackleClamp hitch - otherwise I can not explain his findings... However, those tests offered me the opportunity to think about wasted time, this time :).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 02:44:59 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2013, 11:42:50 PM »
   I will try to describe a sequence of moves that may help the interested reader tie the (3,4) TackleClamp hitch - when there is only one accessible end of the rope, and no accessible end of the pole.
   Still smiling all the way from the Pipe hitch to the TackleClamp hitch  :),  I could nt resist the temptation to illustrate my feelings a little bid ... However, one can ignore the yellow and green colours of the TackleClamp smiley, and follow only the blue, red and black coloured lines. ( See the first attached picture). The drawing is related to the second attached picture, which was the #5 of the pictures showing the previously posted tying method ( the one that started with the Clove hitch ).
   Here we go :

1.  Place the standing end at the centre of the right "eye" of the smiley - at the left side of the pole/picture. Follow the blue line. Pass "under" the pole for the first time.
2.  Complete the first round turn - still following the blue line.
3.  Following the blue line, make a first / blue U turn, ( a first "U" shape ), remaining on the "over" side of the pole. Pass "under" the pole for the second time.
4.   Complete the second round turn. Now, follow the black line.
5.   Following the black line, make a "black wave" on the "over" side of the pole. Here you have to make the first tuck, passing the working end first "over" and then "under" the first / blue U.  ( So, the "black wave" passes "over"/"under" the blue U turn, from right to left). Pass "under" the pole for the third time.
6.   Complete the third round turn. Now, follow the red line.
7.   Following the red line, make a second  / red U turn ( a second "U" shape, this time an inverted one ), remaining on the "over" side of the pole. Here, you have to make the second tuck, passing the working end first "under" and then "over" the "black wave". ( So, the red U passes "under"/"over" the "black wave"- the "black wave" passes "over" /"under" the red U, from right to left, just as it had happened with the blue U. That means that the "black wave" passes "over" the external legs of both the blue and the red U s, and "under" their internal legs, at the middle of the knot ). Pass "under" the pole for the fourth time. 
8.  Complete the fourth round turn - still following the red line. Here, you have to make the third tuck, passing the working end "under" the "black wave". Exit through the left "eye" of the smiley - at the right side of the pole/picture.

   One of these days I will try to draw a more decent sketch, where I will clearly show the "under" and "over" crossings of the lines. This was just a first attempt. The reader can follow the description on the drawing AND on the picture, so he will not be confused at the crossings.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 07:36:58 AM by X1 »

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2013, 12:30:41 AM »
My three turn Well Pipe Hitch beat your four turn Tackle Clamp Hitch....it's not even close either. The KEY in tying a really good Well Pipe Hitch is making the final tie off, (Clove Hitch part), tight and snug, jamming it down on the pipe itself. If a person ties a WPH and fails to jam down the final tying off process (Clove Hitch) all the way down against the pipe/pole, it will probably fail every time.

This isn't even a close race, I beg my fellow KnotMasters to compare the two knots and tell me which one slips when using 550 paracord and which one holds...I can't even budge the Well Pipe Hitch when tied correctly and yes that's only a three turn deal.

It does take some strength to pull X's hitch lengthwise but I can easily do it, so if you're an older person or simply lack proper strength, I can see where maybe you'd get the impression that the Tackle Clamp Hitch is better than it really is.

X1

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2013, 12:59:13 AM »
three turn Well Pipe Hitch

   You are getting stronger each day !  :) 3 Turns Pipe hitch ! ( May I suggest you use it with one, and one turn only - so you will save valuable rope length. More strength / less length :)

if you're an older person

while I am getting older by the hour, that is true... Time, this f serial killer.

TMCD

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Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 08:27:59 PM »
I haven't tested your Tackle Clamp Hitch against the Well Pipe Hitch on any other types of slippery surfaces other than my wooden handled painters pole that's pretty dang slick considering it's got several coats of polyurethane as a finish. It's comparable to a table top in it's finish and slickness and the Well Pipe Hitch simply doesn't budge....It even held it's ground using only two round turns with 550 Paracord.

I wish I could tie your Double Cow Hitch and test it, I can't seem to tie it correctly though. I gave it a half ass effort several weeks ago but haven't mustered the focus to try it again. Maybe explain the steps to tying it and I'll compare it too, but this Tackle Clamp deal's been cuffed and stuffed.