Author Topic: Possble New Knot/Bend  (Read 10002 times)

Matt53

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Possble New Knot/Bend
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 10:49:06 PM »
Luca,  No need for apology.  You bring up a good point- the falsely tied Hunter's bend 'becomes' ABOK #1425 when the free ends and the standing ends are reversed.  This does not seem to be the case with the knot presented in this thread or with the standard Hunter's (#1425).  Both of these seem to 'pull apart' when the free ends and standing ends are reversed.

Matt53

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Possble New Knot/Bend
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 11:01:06 PM »
enantiomeric (mirror image) forms

I believe they are called enantiomorphic ( enanti = other, opposite side / opposing, morphi = form ).
They are called enantiomeric ( enanti + meri = composed by parts ) only in chemistry ?

Enantiomer(ic) is from Organic Chemistry (a long time ago for me!). I agree, enantiomorphic is probably a better term. My reference on enantiomorphic links it to crystal structure so perhaps there is an even better term out there!

Luca

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
Re: Possble New Knot/Bend
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2013, 09:08:45 PM »
Hi Matt53,and Thanks

I did not want to say only this(did you see that I have explained myself badly? Now maybe I explain even worse! So I apologize again!):that the falsely tied Hunter's bend becomes(almost,as can be seen from the diagrams shown in the interesting thread linked by X1,an interesting story on logical consequences that I want to reread carefully) ABOK #1425,when the free ends and the standing ends are reversed;but more I wanted to emphasize the fact that there is no need to perform this operation in order to the knot assumes the two different forms(the one similar to # 1425A, and the other similar to # 1425):if you tie a"Falsely"as appears here(the simplest version):

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3204.0

and then you run an operation(in reverse)similar to that described here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4201.0

you obtain the"1425-like"form.
However, once loaded, the bend has a tendency to take this form, but this  not happens in a complete way without a manual intervention, because the knot jams before the process is completed,taking a"middle way"form.
So, for as I perceive, the Falsely, this jamming and poor knot, which is neither meat nor fish,unstable/bistable,is"conceptually"the real basic  knot ,from which we can start to make other versions:
If you want that this basic bend spontaneously takes the"relieved collars with'parallel'ends"form before it jams, then the bottom side twisted version is for you(= #1425).
If instead you want to prevent this from happening, wanting to get an unjamming knot that keeps the "Hunter's-like" setting,the top side twisted version(the knot that you present) is the solution(I know that basically I'm not adding anything to what one can read and observe in the threads linked above by X1 and me).
Given the similarity between the geometry of Falsely and that of the real  Hunter's , I might even venture that the Hunter's is an interlinked overhand knot version of the former,but frankly I would not pushing me this far (and then the Shakehands,as we place?)because the difference that is generated in this case, is much deeper in respect with the twistings mentioned above:tie a Falsely(or a top side twist Falsely)with ropes differently colored,and look at the bottom side:if you then tie two Hunter's bends,the one mirror image of the other,looking at the correspondents sides of these,you will not be able to find in any case a match between how they combine the colors of the two ropes and  the direction of how the tails come out,with respect to the Falsely!

                                                                                                           Bye!

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3767
Re: Possble New Knot/Bend
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2013, 10:25:45 PM »
Sorry for the delayed response.

Quote
[But, no, the "reverse" side is NOT the same --tie
SmitHunter's bend and see how it differs
(using differently colored ropes, that is!).]
 
The knot originally presented and the SmitHunter's bend (#1425a) are
the same on the 'reverse' side.  Depending on how it is tied, one can produce
enantiomeric (mirror image) forms but these are alternate representations
of the same form. This knot differs from the Hunters' bend (#1425a) on
the 'obverse' side in that the parallel strands (Hunter's bend) are wrapped
around each other (forming an overhand knot).

Let me reiterate, and I hope that given this you
DO tie them with colored ropes and so see the
truth --to be clear, I'm referring to what was shown
as 08 Final configuration reverse side (enlargement).JPG .
SmitHunter's bend is NOT this (although similar).
The position of the straight-in parts of the SParts is
reversed (re upper/lower, in the image).

Now, for some folks it's possible that their reference
for what is SmitHunter's bend is wrong, in showing
what is better called a "false zeppelin bend" ; but you
have ABOK which has the former correctly drawn.
In the correct knot, the overhands *interlock* with
their SParts' turns, each into the other, unlike the zeppelin.

Quote
You bring up a good point- the falsely tied Hunter's bend
'becomes' ABOK #1425 when the free ends and the standing ends are reversed.

Matt53, again, please note the subtleties here --this assertion
is wrong, as Luca indicates (slightly) in reply.  The former
knot doesn't interlock overhands no matter how one
loads the ends (in reverse, normally) --so it cannot be
the same as the latter knot, which is so interlocked.



--dl*
====
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 10:34:18 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Matt53

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Possble New Knot/Bend
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2013, 11:32:53 PM »
Don,  You are correct on both points! The reverse side of the Hunter's bend and the current bend are similar but NOT identical. (see attached photos).  The difference is that with the Hunter's bend the free end exits opposite (contralateral) the standing portion of this same line that forms half of the 'parallel formation' on the reverse side of the knot. By contrast with the current knot presented, on the reverse side the free ends exit on the SAME side (ipsilateral) as the corresponding standing parts. I may not have described this  clearly, but the photo of the reverse aspect of both knots side by side (photo 2) demonstrates the different direction of free end  exit between the two knots. In retrospect this 'makes sense' because the overhand loop on the front side of this knot reverses the direction (relative to the parallel strands on the front surface of the Hunter's Bend) of the respective free ends (see photo 1).
      As you correctly pointed out the 'reversed' falsely tied Hunter's and ABOK #1425 are not identical (although similar). As with the above situation, with the falsely tied Hunter's the free end exit OPPOSITE the corresponding standing parts and with #1425 (if the standing and free ends are reversed to produce a configuration more easily compared with the falsely tied Hunter's) the free end exit on the SAME side as the corresponding standing parts.