Author Topic: What is it?  (Read 3980 times)

vladimir3722

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What is it?
« on: December 08, 2012, 03:22:57 PM »
Hello!

In Ashley book in #3137 bridles of short length that are fitted at one end with a toggle and at the other end with an eye are said about.

But in illustartion i can discern only bridels with an eye on each end joined together by short lengths of rope with toggles on each end.

What does it mean?

And do i properly understand that bridle is a short length of rope with an eye on one end and toggle on the other end of the rope for joining together?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 04:06:25 PM by vladimir3722 »
Vladimir

Mike in MD

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2012, 11:50:06 PM »
Hi V,

The picture with 3137 looks wrong.  There are longer ropes with two eyes and shorter ropes with two toggles.  At least in my edition of ABOK. 

The definition that I found is:
Nautical. a rope or chain secured at both ends to an object to be held, lifted, or towed, and itself held or lifted by a rope or chain secured at its center. 

The bridles in the picture of 3137 are supported in their center by the stay and they are secured at each end to the sail.  So it is the use of the bridle, not the eye and toggle, that defines it.  Learn something new every day.

Mike

edit: well, sort of supported at the center.  Each bridle takes two turns around the stay, so each has two points of support.  But the idea is clear.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 12:00:21 AM by Mike in MD »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 03:09:54 AM »
What does it mean?

And do i properly understand that bridle is
a short length of rope with an eye on one end and toggle on the other end
of the rope for joining together?

I also find this passage confusing.  He's apparently purporting
to present the Luce & Ward structure, but has the
contradictions that you have pointed out.  I'm wondering if
what L&W intended were structures like those shown at the
bottom of this page?


As for "bridle", think "harness".  Ashley's putting the term in
italics leads one to his glossary, where he gives a definition
that I doubt holds, today.  You can see bridles on lobster and
conch pots in this forum's (Pract.) inaugural post, Knots in
the Wild
.  The former have 2-leg bridles, usually joined
with a clove hitch --tail reeved back through the lay-- to the
pot sides at one end, and the center formed into an overhand
eyeknot
to be tied to by a "snood"/"gangion" --a line that
will connect to a ground line (or a hauling line will connect
directly to the bridle); conch pots are usually fitted with a
3-leg bridle, also with an overhand eyeknot for connection.


--dl*
====

vladimir3722

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2012, 01:07:41 PM »
In Seamanship of 1891 here

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/luce/part3.htm#pg166

on Plate 71, fig. 377 i found original picture from Seamanship by Luce & Ward. As one can see it's the same picture as in ABOK.

I think bridles in ABOK are those very short lengths of rope with a toggle on each end and lace lines are those rope lengths with an eye on each end. So, correct version in ABOK, IMHO, must be:

"But in this case bridles of short length are fitted on each end with a toggle..."

But i think picture in ABOK is wrong as he says:

"Luce and Ward's Seamanship (1884) shows a similar practice. But in this case..." Bold words are mine.

But in this case (sorry for the pun :)) i don't understand how the picture in ABOK must look.

From above Semanship:

"Fore-and-aft sails running upon hemp stays are bent with manilla bridles, the bridles being toggled to the sails. Those running on iron stays are fitted with hanks, Figs. 376 and 377. Bridles must be passed against the lay of the stay."

I'm totally confused  :(

Any comments?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 01:31:25 PM by vladimir3722 »
Vladimir

Mike in MD

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 03:00:06 PM »
No.  The bridles are the longer ropes with the two eyes that attach to the sails at the toggles and are supported by the stay. 

vladimir3722

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 03:24:27 PM »
No.  The bridles are the longer ropes with the two eyes that attach to the sails at the toggles and are supported by the stay.

Thanks, Mike.

But are there bridles in seamanship which Ashley says about which have eye and toggle or they must necessarily have only two eyes? Or they will be called otherwise?

I think about three possible cases with #3137:

1. Picture is wrong, description is true

2. Picture is true, description is wrong

3. Picture is wrong, description is wrong

Which of these three is true?
Vladimir

Mike in MD

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 04:42:32 PM »
A bridle can have an eye and a toggle.  Look at 3136 where the lace line is reeved through the eyelets and then over the stay.  Here the lace line is a continuous rope.  If the bridle has an eye and a toggle, then multiple bridles are linked together to make a lace line.  Each bridle would go from one eyelet, over the stay to the next eyelet, where it would be toggled to the next bridle, etc., etc.

In 3137, the bridles and the toggles are permanently attached to the sail, which looks like a good system.  Here it makes good sense to separate the toggles from the bridles.

I am pretending to be a sailor and trying to get the language right.  It is an experience to read: "Lace lines on staysails should always be rove opposite to the lay of the stay."  This is not something I usually think about.

Mike

vladimir3722

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 05:21:50 PM »
A bridle can have an eye and a toggle... ...If the bridle has an eye and a toggle, then multiple bridles are linked together to make a lace line.  Each bridle would go from one eyelet, over the stay to the next eyelet, where it would be toggled to the next bridle, etc., etc. ...

So, in ABOK may be rather

1. Picture is wrong, description is true?

Vladimir

Mike in MD

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 06:46:27 PM »
The picture does not represent the description of 3137.  However, they both show or describe reasonable methods to rig a staysail.  So it is not a choice of where to say wrong and where to say right.  Both are right, just disconnected.

A bridle is defined by its function, not by its form. 

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 07:42:02 PM »
No.  The bridles are the longer ropes with the two eyes that attach to the sails at the toggles and are supported by the stay.

Thanks, Mike.

No thanks : this is wrong; the longer ropes are the lace lines,
the bridles are connecting them.  This is what I gather, anyway,
from reading both Ashley's definition of "bridle" and various uses
of his, and others, such as Biddlecombe's The Art of Rigging .

[edit : this (#1) note of my confusion is answered below; thanks, Vladimir!]
1) NB: of the L&W on-line document, p.167 flows into 168 with
an apparent loss of text : "... yard-arm jiggers." has a full stop,
but p.168 apparently is a continuation, "manila bridles, ...", from
text not presented here.
Can someone find the original book?

2) The L&W DRAWING DIFFERS FROM ASHLEY'S !!
The former shows (a) NO seizing of the connecting lines (bridles),
and (b) they (bridles) are TWO PER CRINGLE/hole in joining lacelines.
Ashley, however, shows apparently ONE bridle terminated by toggles
--hence our confusion-- which is seized to the sail cringle.

.:.  This allows that for L&W each bridle is a short rope as described
with eye & toggle, and these are in PAIRS per hole, one reaching fore,
the other aft, to toggle the eyes of lace-line segments.

Frankly, in such a construction, I'd regard those segmented "lace lines"
--which we might observe do no actual *lacing* in the images--
as themselves bridles of a sort --short, and for connecting.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 09:13:07 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Mike in MD

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 10:38:48 PM »
Looking at the picture of 3137, I agree that Dan's description is better than mine.  I like the interpretation that there are lace line segments that are joined to the staysail by short two-toggle bridles.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 04:20:00 AM »
Looking at the picture of 3137, I agree that Dan's description is better than mine.
I like the interpretation that there are lace line segments
that are joined to the staysail by short two-toggle bridles.

Agreed that that is what Ashley shows @#3137,
but if he's of no better information and merely intending
to copy Luce & Ward, then he's got it wrong.

To my mind, Ashley's illustrated structure leaves one with
both lace lines & one toggled bridle seized to the cringles;
whereas in L&W's there are two bridles per cringle and
these are themselves toggled (hence the description's "eye"
at one end); then each toggle gets a 2nd use in holding
the laceline eye (the toggle being pulled past its own eye).

--dl*
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vladimir3722

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Re: What is it?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 12:46:11 PM »

1) NB: of the L&W on-line document, p.167 flows into 168 with
an apparent loss of text : "... yard-arm jiggers." has a full stop,
but p.168 apparently is a continuation, "manila bridles, ...", from
text not presented here.
Can someone find the original book?

Dan,

on top of p.167 there is "...reef-tackles are inadequate.*"

"* On board of the practice ships, in lieu of the reef-burtons and pendant which was the old plan, the sail is hauled out by the reef-tackles alone. And whenever the lead permits, reef-tackles are used as yard-arm-jiggers. " is a footnote to the above asterisk.

If one connects "Fore-and-aft sails running upon hemp stays are bent with..." on the end of p. 167 with the start on p. 168 without asterisk's information, one will receive:
"Fore-and-aft sails running upon hemp stays are bent with manilla bridles, the bridles being toggled to the sails. Those running on iron stays are fitted with hanks, Figs. 376 and 377. Bridles must be passed against the lay of the stay. "

Vladimir