Author Topic: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?  (Read 15668 times)

TMCD

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2012, 03:04:11 PM »
Another obvious niche for snug hitches that hasn't been discussed yet is tying them around tool handles. I tie both, the Constrictor and Bag Knot around shovel handles, broom handles etc. In this manner they can be neatly tied up in the garage by making a strop and hanging them on a nail or hook. I also do this with nail punches because it makes them easier to find when on my work truck. I usually bend the paracord together with the Sailor's Knife Lanyard or the Double Knife Lanyard.

Two half hitches would be goofy in this situation, a snug hitch is the best option.

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2012, 03:17:32 PM »
The triple wrap Clove Hitch really seems to grip well, quite a bit better than the double wrap deal.

   I guess it depends upon the relative diameters of the pole (d pole) and the rope (d rope). What is the ratio d pole / d rope you have tried ? Have you tried the 4-wrap Clove hitch on the same pole and rope ? What is the optimum number of round turns ?
   
How does [it] stack up to the many other multi wrap presentations by you? Is it well suited for a length wise pull or would the double cow hitch be preferable?

   I don t have a clue !  :)

   I'm having a hard time tying the double cow hitch as you presented it.

   May be you can tie it much easier. I had tried to retain, as a mnemonic aid, the "image"  of the Cow hitch through the tying procedure, but this might complicate it a little bid. 
   Just form the shape shown at the first picture, and penetrate it with the accessible end of the pole, as it is shown at the second picture. Then, pull hard ! I use pull the two ends the one after the other, against the pole, by hands AND feet, like a rower... :) The tightness of a pre-tensioned Double Cow hitch has no relation whatsoever with the Pile hitch...
   Regarding the specific question you have asked, I have no experience in critical or rescue situations, and I do not know how the parameter of "time" can be evaluated... Also, and this is the most important thing, we do not have any experimental data for those hitches - except for the Andalusian hitch. So, I would suggest to read everything that is published about the tests performed  onthe Andalusian hitch, ask the inventors /climber that have discovered it, and then give it a try.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:30:08 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2012, 03:24:56 PM »
is tying them around tool handles.

   If the handle is not too short, one can also use the ABoK#1755, #1756, upside down.

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2012, 09:17:39 PM »
The triple wrap Clove Hitch really seems to grip well, quite a bit better than the double wrap deal. I do like the fact that both of them can be somewhat pre tensioned, it feels secure. How does this little gem stack up to the many other multi wrap presentations by you? Is it well suited for a length wise pull or would the double cow hitch be preferable? I'm having a hard time tying the double cow hitch as you presented it.

A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.

The Pipe Hitch sets the bar pretty high.  The Pipe Hitch below can be modified with a Buntline (instead of the Two Half Hitches) for a different effect.  Depending on my need, the version I use may change accordingly.


« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 09:20:32 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2012, 10:34:28 PM »
The Pipe Hitch sets the bar pretty high.

  As I have explained time and again, if we use the same number of wraps, say n, the n-wrap Pile hitch is inferior to ANY one of the four n-wraps hitches shown at (1). ( Provided that, in high jump, the use of glue at the bar is prohibited...  :)) At the time the ABoK was first published ( and, I suppose, at the time this nice sketch of the Pile hitch was drawn ), the world record of the high jump was about 2.00 m - now it is about 2.40 ( +20%). I reckon that the difference between the Pile hitch and any of those four hitches shown at (1) is (much) more than that !  :) 
  However, I agree 100% that one can always pass under the bar, and still manage to live with it... :)


1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25008#msg25008

Well, according to TMCD, the context is "money is on the line."  For example, you have 10 seconds to make the hitch, not 16 seconds.  If the improvement to one of your hitches is marginal (which I even doubt), then I'm going with the faster solution.  Currently, I can tie a Pipe Hitch much faster than one of the hitches you've suggested.  It's like you're saying the Pipe Hitch is so hideous that we have to go with one of these other hitches you invented.  Such a stance mars your credibility because I have personal experience with the Pipe Hitch working fantastically in real world applications.

If you can't tie a tight Pipe Hitch to get the job done, then I sincerely question your ability to tie basic knots.  I want to be clear that I'm not trying to be derogatory.  You may have a physical disability that is unknown to me.

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2012, 01:02:04 AM »
Xarax, I was answering TMCD's question, not some question you think/wish he asked.

A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.

The answer is easy enough to determine.  You get a stop watch and time how long it takes to tie AND untie a particular hitch.  For me, the Pipe Hitch remains the winner.  I will give it to you that the beefed up Clove Hitch is relatively quick to tie, but not as quick as the Pipe Hitch for me.  Also, when I slip the Pipe Hitch, it sets the bar even higher because the time to untie is super low compared to the beefed up Clove.  Further, the Pipe Hitch is a high performer.  I can cinch it up tight so that the coils do not expand much, but I understand that others may not be as strong as me.  So, you may have difficulties there.

It's unfortunate you have to get so emotional every single time somebody criticizes one of your hitches.  Come on.  Let's try to be more objective so the discussions can be more productive.

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2012, 02:20:40 AM »
   First of all, let me notice what has been said at a previous post :
   Well, if you need a knot on a bight, you can sit there and complain, or you can man up and do the best you can with what you know!
 ...clearly I'm talking about knots on a bight.

  It is impossible to tie the Pile hitch variation shown at (1) in the bight, I am afraid... and the same is true for the slipped or the Buntline-based versions of it. On the contrary, all the knots that I have suggested are "clearly" TIB knots, with the exception of the non-slipped single-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir - but the slipped version of it becomes a TIB knot, as I have mentioned at (2):

even if the non-slipped version of a 2-wrap hitch is not a TIB knot, its slipped version might become TIB. 

   Does any of the knots suggested at (2) really take much more time to be tied than un equivalent - re. the number of its wraps - Pile hitch ? No, not at all.
   1. The time the Andalusian hitch needs, is shown at the video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShFA4CMyhNA&list=UUILfSVV5Dr_qk5i2snM6uJw&index=1&feature=plcp
    Less than 10 seconds, and I guess that, with a little practice, one can tie it in 6 seconds. So, even if the Pile hitch needs 1 second (!), the difference would be 5 seconds...
    In sailing, one is often confronted with sudden changes of the weather, the course of the wind or the boat, with impeding collisions with rocks, docks, logs, boats, etc... but I had never felt the need to do something in such a rapid pace, in less than 6 seconds ! On the contrary, if one does something in a hurry, and makes a mistake, the time that would be needed to correct it would be awfully longer... If we tie a mediocre or a so-so hitch, and then we see that it does not hold as it should ( because the load has suddenly increased, there came some water on the surface of pole, the direction of the standing end has changed, etc. ), we would need many times the time we had "saved" at the first place, to untie it and then tie a tighter one in its place ...
    2. The time the Tom Foul s hitch needs, is described at ABoK#2534. It is a knot that has been popular to the magicians since the original Dark Ages, precisely because it can be tied in the bight so fast ! What else can I say ? I am sure that Alan Lee can tie it in much less than 6 seconds, probably in 3 seconds ! So, the difference with the hypothetical miraculously-tied-in-just-one-second Pile hitch would also be 5 seconds.
   3. The time the slipped locked Cow hitch needs, depends upon the time one needs to tie a single Cow hitch ! Then he should just pass the slipped bight underneath the standing end. I guess that it will also need less than 10 seconds - and if we compare the hand movements needed to form a Pile hitch with those needed to form a Cow hitch, we will not find much difference.
   4. The time the slipped single-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir needs is probably more than 10 seconds, because it takes some time to dress the knot correctly, and tighten it so the two coils stand perpendicularily on the surface of the pole. So, this is the only knot of the 4 I had suggested, that will need 10, or even 20 seconds more than a Pile hitch. If time is sooo precious, and 10 or 20 seconds cost sooo much, then one should not tie this hitch.
    It is amusing that we are talking about seconds, even minutes, when we are comparing knots...Very few practical purposes need a knot that would be able to be tied very quickly, and in even fewer the need of speed would force the knot tyer to make compromises to security.
   I have something else to add : To me, to tie a knot, the best possible knot, in the best possible way, is a satisfaction by itself. I do not wish to lose the joy to watch the proper knot properly tied, just to gain a few seconds, or even minutes. If I have to save time, I would rather eat fast, second quality food, than tie fast, second quality knots... :)
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25030#msg25030
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25008#msg25008 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:13:45 PM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2012, 02:50:21 AM »
Back to TMCD's question I quoted above, if the guy below can just slip off the beefed up Clove from the end of the pipe, then the beefed up Clove may have an advantage with the untie process.  However, if he must take off his gloves to loosen the dressing of any knot, then that knot will have a disadvantage to the Pipe Hitch.  The Pipe Hitch can be slipped and easily untied with gloves.  A safer environment is thereby maintained.  I'm all for worker safety, while others may not care so much.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:58:18 AM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2012, 02:59:57 AM »
an advantage with the untie process.

Pull the " trigger" of the slipped bight of the locked Cow hitch. It will be released as fast as a bullet !  :)

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2012, 06:51:28 AM »
Hi Xarax, can you explain the relevance of that knot to anything I've been discussing?  Thanks

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2012, 12:46:42 PM »
can you explain the relevance of that knot to anything I've been discussing?
What a line ! :) Let me try my hand...

   This is not a 2-wrap, ease to tie and to release, tight hitch.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:07:52 PM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2012, 03:06:59 PM »
Hi TMCD,

In the quote below you asked:
A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.

I am wondering what the two dozen poles are? Are they to be secured individually or as a bundle? It could make a difference as to a solution.

I understand that "money's on the line" (time is money), but there is always time to tie a good knot. ;-)

SS
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 03:43:32 PM by SS369 »

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2012, 05:00:53 PM »
Good points, also, what are the specs on the pipes?  Depending on the specs, a wrap hitch may be completely the wrong approach altogether.  For example, if you can easily get the rope through the pipe, I'm already imagining quicker and much safer options.

xarax

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2014, 08:02:00 AM »
   I am well aware of the fact that one man s hieroglyphs can be all Greek to another, so the text in (1) will not make any sense to him... The important thing, which I would like to restate, is that the interested reader should tie and try this Multi-wrap Clove hitch on different materials, and around different poles, increasing or decreasing the number of wraps, until he feels that they are pre-tensioned and "locked" as much as possible. I have seen that, regarding this, it pays if we pull the free ends one by one, but towards a direction tangent to the surface of the pole, so we do not pull the oblique riding turn ( the "bridge" ) of the Clove hitch away from the surface at the same time.
   Although the last segments of the free ends are not "locked" by any mechanism similar to the "opposed bights" one we use at the Double Cow hitch and at the TackleClamp hitch (0), they remain surprisingly firmly "glued" to each other, because of the friction generated in between the adjacent wraps. Tie and try it !

0. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4906.0
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25019#msg25019
This is not a knot.