Author Topic: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?  (Read 15674 times)

erizo1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 06:45:11 PM »
Let me be a little more emphatic, these Miller Knots or Snug Hitches clearly serve a great purpose in my line of work. As I explained above, it's very difficult trying to tie off to a ladder rung with two half hitches and much easier tying one of the Miller's Knots IMO. So there's a perfect niche for these knots, among many I'm sure.

Thanks, TMCD, the fact that these are sometimes easier to tie is another feature I hadn't thought of. That's also the kind of thing where I can look back on times when I was in an awkward position trying to tie a hitch and would have benefited from knowing a good snug hitch.

Luca

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2012, 05:07:19 PM »
Hi erizo1,

Another application in which are used the snug hitches(thanks Sweeney,I did not know this definition),is to wrap them around  another rope,usually larger,but also of the same size(at least one of the photos by Dan Lehman linked above by Sweeney is a good example of this application);I think that,with regard to this application,are preferred to the"loop/noose"hitches,because maybe have a good grip,without too much sap the strength of the rope around which they are wrapped.Some other examples, among others that relate to this application, are visible on pages 265/266 of the ABOK(I know this is about lengthwise pull, but this is,however,another niche application for snug hitches!).
It is always about to wrap around a rope: the loop/noose/grip-based hitches, are not they generally consist of a snug  hitch wrapped  to their own standing part?I believe that this alone would be enough to justify not only their conception, which already justified in itself, as pointed out previously by X1,but also the use!

I have a particular fascination with the category of hitches that includes the ground line, bag, snuggle, boom, etc. - I think there's something elegant and pleasing about them

OK, after some things a little obvious I wrote above, there is another thing a little obvious  that personally fascinates me with regard to snug hitches,which is that there is a sort of "mutual aid" between the hitch and the object that it wraps, because the object is grabbed by the hitch, but at the same time, the grabbed object itself,becomes an integrated and constitutive part of the hitch,which,removed from the object that grabs,often resolves itself to be nothing, just disappears![it is not exactly the case of the Ground-line hitch, which becomes an overhand knot,or of other similar bag-knots( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%27s_knot ), which become figures of eight, or nine;among these knots,only Abok #1244 (#1674 for no-slipped version ), resolve itself to be nothing,a no-knot,and is tiable in the bight,as pointed out by TMCD(it seems to be"almost"a Constrictor(knot,binder knot,no hitch,in the case of Constrictor,unless,as the no-slipped Buntline Hitch mentioned by knot4u,do not you want to use as a permanent hitch));the dialogue that here was between Sweeney and X1 about the Ground-line hitch, it was to me very interesting and instructive, to me personally has led to the conclusion that perhaps this knot, when it is used as a hitch,and not as binding / bag knot, is more suitable to be used around objects(possibly a line? http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3656.msg24949#msg24949 ) with a diameter not much larger than the diameter of the rope used, because, in this way, the tail of the hitch tends to position itself in a way that it is more directly nipped  by the pulling on the standing part, without being at the mercy of the "triangular slack" created by placing the knot under tension]

                                                                                                     Bye!

« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 06:51:35 PM by Luca »

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2012, 08:51:35 PM »
   An unambiguous, and, at the same time, easy way to classify hitches, is by the number of wraps around the object they are attached on.
   In my computer, I have 5 files where I keep pictures of the "best"  hitches with 1, 2, 3, 4 and more than 4 = multiple wraps. By the "best", I mean the most secure, most tight, easy to remember, easy to tie, easy to untie, and most elegant of all the known hitches. A curious thing is that out of the many hitches shown by Ashley in ABoK, I have only the single and double Strangle and Constrictor hitches ! Nothing else... It is evident that the main source of knowledge about hitches, for the great majority of people, is the ABoK, so I believe that there is much more to be leant about those knots, before we reach the point to ask ourselves what niche - if any - they will fill...

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 09:27:33 PM »
Luca, your posts are actually impossible to comprehend accurately.  I can only grab little nuggets here and there.  I know your period key works because you have at least two periods in your long post.  You are writing sentences.  Please, just drop a period after every sentence, and start a start a new sentence.  Anyway, here's one comment I caught:

...among these knots,only Abok #1244 (#1674 for no-slipped version ), resolve itself to be nothing...

Here are some wrap knots that can be tied on a bight:

Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

The challenge is finding a memorable technique for each one.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:30:58 PM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 11:04:42 PM »
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.0

Luca

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 12:42:06 AM »
Hi knot4u,

I'm a bit embarrassed :-[, I do not only write bad English, but also in Italian, I tend to write in a way a bit "bizarre", I remember my teachers, complained me a little like you did! Evidently it is my fault,I'm sorry,I will try to improve!(and I'll try to follow your advices!).About ABOK #1244,I mean that it is the only one of the bag knots to be tiable on the bight:of course there are many more snug/wrap hitches that have this feature.
               
                                                                                                         Bye!

TMCD

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 01:42:25 AM »
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.0
Most knot tyers, myself included, love ABoK 1244. Why don't you like ABoK 1244? It's not meant for a length wise pull Xarax, it's a right angle hitch...I know you know that but your response mentioned length wise pulls and that's a bad comparison. The Pile Hitch has been well regarded as well, it's had lots of positive write ups in various knot books. I've used 1244 in various scenarios and have never had a problem with it and that's in modern cordage.

knot4u

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 08:36:00 AM »
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.0

Well, if you need a knot on a bight, you can sit there and complain, or you can man up and do the best you can with what you know!  I'm not saying these knots are my favorites, but clearly I'm talking about knots on a bight.  That's why I started a new thread.  So, I can help people focus.  If you can contribute to the new thread, please do, thanks.

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 04:22:14 PM »
Most knot tyers,...love ABoK 1244. Why don't you like ABoK 1244?

   Obviously, I had succeeded to stir up things a little bid ! Great success !  :)
   First, what most tyers do or they do not, is not a measure of something being correct or wrong, or better or worse from something else, for many reasons. I would argue that it is not even an indication of the value of the things they do or the things they do not ! That is why the field of knotting is full of myths, of unproven subjective beliefs and superstitions, but empty of testable theories and objective experimental facts.  Why ? Because most knot tyers know and tie only the knots they had learned at a young age reading the bible, the ABoK, or listening to some knot guru, who keeps parroting the ABoK. MOST knot tyers never try to figure out other knots, or learn other knots, or test the knots they know with the knots somebody else knows.
    Now, one may ask, why is this so ? The answer is simple : One can live very well with the few knots he already has learned at a young age, and manage to somehow "solve" any knotting problems he encounters with those few knots. Most of the time, the satisfaction one gets by just tying something, is far greater than the satisfaction of having it tied as it should, or as it could. The "solution" might not be the best, the optimum or the most elegant, but, most of the time, gets the job done - and if it does not, one can always just throw in another one or two tucks. NASA "solved" the problem of securing the wires of Curiosity with the same knots my son used to tie his shoelaces as a kid, before he had learned any other knot - and I am sure that most people will never tie their shoelaces or their tie with anything else than the first knot they have learned... It does the job, and, what is also important, anything else that could also do the same job, should not do it in a sooo better way. The differences between knots are small, and sometimes even subtle, so most people feel that the additional effort to learn new knots, or test new knots, or figure out new knots, is not worth the trouble. And by this "most people" I mean " most knot tyers", too.  :)
   Let me return at the topic : Most 2-wrap hitches will do most things we want them to do, because of the two mechanisms all wrapping-type hitches make use of : the capstan effect, and the riding turns. By making two turns around the object any 2-wrap hitch diminishes the tensile force at the second end at a great degree, and squeezing the tail underneath one ore two riding turns, in between tensioned rope segments and the hard surface of the pole, completes the solution. So, most knot tyers will keep using any one of the many 2-wrap hitches in the ABoK - and by doing this time and again, for years, they will learn to like them, and even to love them, as history has taught us about what humans are able to do... :) 
   I will not say why I do not "love" : ABoK#1244 or Pile hitch  :). However, I do "like" them, as I like any other 2-wrap hitch, because they are such marvellous little rope mechanisms - as most hitches are. Some of them are tighter than the others, and some are prettier than the others, but, essentially, most of them work, and work in the same way. Some can be tied in the bight and some can not, but this is a feature that we will probably need very rarely. Also, we must not forget that ALL knots can be tied in the bight, with a doubled line !  :) With a one- or two-wraps hitch, doubling the line is not a big deal. Also, it should be mentioned that even if the non-slipped version of a 2-wrap hitch is not a TIB knot, its slipped version might become TIB.
   Let me show which are the 2-wraps hitches included in my 2-wrap hitch file, that I do "love"  :) ( alongside the Strangle and the Constrictor ). If somebody persuades me, with reasonable theoretical arguments and experimental indications ( at least, if not data ) that there is another 2-wrap hitch which is more secure, more tight, more easy to remember, more easy to tie, more easy to untie, and/or more elegant than any of these, I will include this hitch in my file at once, I will throw out of my heart / forget the hitches that I used to love till now, and I will fall in love with the new acquaintances. :) It is the love of knots that brought us here.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 04:28:49 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 04:38:59 PM »
So, I can help people focus.

   I try to do the same - but we first have to see, then to focus... :) We are taliking about hitches, in general, or just about 2-wrap hitches ? Which are the 2-wrap hitches that could be tied in the bight ? When we present a catalogue, I guess it should be complete, or, at least, should not presented as it is complete while it is not.
   If you are searching for somebody who just "sits there and complains", you should better find somebody without my present back pain, from the hitches I tie and and the pictures I take ... :)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 04:40:14 PM by X1 »

erizo1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2012, 04:59:33 PM »
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

I have seen the constrictor listed in several places now as a hitch, but I've tried that and it seems like a pretty poor one to me. I tie it nice and tight, and then if I flap it or give it several sharp tugs, I can just watch it lose its grip and come apart. I learned it as a binding knot, and it's marvelous there, but it doesn't seem cut out to be a hitch to me. I might trust it on about the same level as the ground line - in situations where nothing too valuable was at stake or the line would experience a pretty constant load - but as a hitch I feel like the constrictor is way outperformed by the sailor's and snuggle, and possibly even the bag hitch.

I'm interested to hear what you think.

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2012, 05:14:00 PM »
   I have seen the constrictor listed in several places now as a hitch, but I've tried that and it seems like a pretty poor one to me. I tie it nice and tight, and then if I flap it or give it several sharp tugs, I can just watch it lose its grip and come apart. I learned it as a binding knot, and it's marvelous there, but it doesn't seem cut out to be a hitch to me

   I agree. There are some hitches where the direction of the pull of the standing end matters a lot, and some where it does not matter at all. If the direction of the pull remains more or less tangent to the sutface of the pole, and perpendicular to its axis, the Constrictor is superb. I think that the Strangle knot is, in a sense, more versatile as a tight hitch, because its grip is not depending upon the direction of the pull so much.
   Now, the Constrictor is not "marvelous" as a binding knot either. If you wish to go as far as a 3-wraps hitch, try the TackleClamp hitch - and for a very easy-to-remember 4 wraps hitch, try the Double Cow hitch.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 05:40:08 PM by X1 »

TMCD

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2012, 02:31:26 AM »
Xarax,
What's do you call the beefed up Clove Hitch you presented a while back? It simply consisted of an extra turn on each side of the Clove Hitch and I liked it very much. It also seemed to handle a length wise pull pretty damn good. Pro's and Con's of it? Do you like it?

X1

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2012, 05:17:52 AM »
   Oh, names do not matter much - if at all ... :) I had seen that, on top of the usual riding-turn effect, at a multi-coil Clove hitch there was also something else playing a curious role, that I had not predicted it would make any difference... Yet it does, and the way it achieves it is very interesting : as the riding turn of a multi-coil Clove hitch has to span more than two round turns across, it is forced, by the increased width of the multiple rope diameters, to settle at a much smaller than 90 degrees angle, relatively to the axis of the pole ( See the attached pictures). Doing this, the riding turn now forces the round turns to be squeezed the one upon the other - so, in a way, it "locks" them in the position they had settled when the hitch was loaded at the first place, even if/after the load has been removed. What we get, is a hitch that is able to be pre-tensioned ( to some degree), that is, to accumulate and store within its multiple round turns some of the tensile forces that were inserted into them when the hitch was loaded. I have argued that this effect helps the hitch to withstand a subsequent lengthwise pull, because its round turns would not deformed by such a pull too much into oblique ellipses, as they usually do in most other hitches.
   As the hitch accumulates and stores tensile forces within its round turns, and as those forces are locked there because the squeezed-upon-each-other round turns cannot slip, it becomes something of a "coil spring"  : So, when we intervene in the balance of the hitch, by manually forcing those round turns to slip relatively to each other, this "coil spring"  is suddenly released, and so does the hitch : a quick-release hitch, so to speak.
   All the pre-tensioning effects are more pronounced in the case the material we use can be elongated, so it can store the tensile energy we put into the rope length of the round turns, without releasing it after a small relocation of the ends. Therefore it is better if we use nylon ropes, as nylon is a very stretchy material ( compared with the other materials used for ropes ).
   Of course, we can not add too many round turns... First, if they are too many, we would not be able to pre-tension all of them, because of the reverse capstan effect. Second, the angle of the riding turn with the axis of the pole would be too acute, and so ithe riding turn will probably pass above the round turns at the two sides of the "coils spring", and it would not be able to squeeze them the one upon the other any more...It is a sensible balance we have to achieve, taking into account the relative diameters of the rope and the pole, as well as their friction characteristics. In short,we have to rely on the only proven, and most succesfull primordial technique of all knot tyers : trial and error !  :)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 05:23:27 AM by X1 »

TMCD

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Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2012, 02:50:35 PM »
The triple wrap Clove Hitch really seems to grip well, quite a bit better than the double wrap deal. I do like the fact that both of them can be somewhat pre tensioned, it feels secure. How does this little gem stack up to the many other multi wrap presentations by you? Is it well suited for a length wise pull or would the double cow hitch be preferable? I'm having a hard time tying the double cow hitch as you presented it.

A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.