Author Topic: Carrick X bend  (Read 6235 times)

X1

  • Inactive
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1200
Carrick X bend
« on: November 13, 2012, 07:47:36 PM »
   When I tie a bend I do not recognize, I realize two things : first, that we have too many bends, and too small a brain, which is not evolved to remember complex 1D patterns in 3+1 D space-time ! Second, that I am too old, and if one should really remember all the existing knots, he should learn them at a very early age. With most kids using their cell-phones to find something in the multiplication table, I do not believe we are going to see young boys learning knots any time soon...
   When I first tied the bend shown in the attached pictures, I thought that it is too loose to be capable to secure the tails - and that the tension on the standing parts ( that are not interlinked near the axis of the bend ) could spread the two links, and release the grip of the nipping bights on the nipped pair of tails. Well, I was wrong, again. We can never be sure how a knot will behave, so anything we say in advance in not much more than guesses, at best. We have to tie the knot, because, in a simple tangle of ropes, it is unbelievable how much some minor details can make or break its integrity, as we have seen time and again. This knot can be elongated a lot, but its security is not jeopardised in any way. The two tails remain encircled by the two bights, and they do not show any sign of early slippage.
   We know that many knots can be tied so that their tying diagrams, their initial, loose forms ( their topology) will remain identical, yet their final, tightened forms ( their geometry ) will be different - and they may differ a lot ! In some cases, the only change is the relative position of the tails, as they exit the knot s nub - the way they cross each other ( the one "over" and the other "under", or vice versa). This "minor"  detail is sufficient to force the tightening knot shrink differently, and to settle in a different final form. That is the case with the bend shown in this thread.
   It is topologically identical to the Carrick bend, yet the relative position of the tails is different. I had not realized to this day that the exact way tails of the capsised Carrick bend cross each other, can change the final form of the knot so much ! I used to tighten the Carrick bend without paying any attention to the relative position of the tails, so I guess I was tyimg the "other" version all the time - so I had not recognized this bend when I first tied it ! Moreover, I had noticed that the mechanics of the bend were different from most bends I know, so I had not related it with the Carrick bend at all ! ( until Luca mentioned the fact - thanks Luca ).
   Now, one may argue that "this one"  is the "original" capsised Carrick bend, and " the other one" is the X variation ( X = crossed tails). I have no idea which knot most people tie most of the time, so I only wish to point out the difference here, not to make any suggestions how each of the two knots should be named.
   The reader is advised to tie the two capsised Carrick bends on the ends of the same pair of ropes, so he would be able to have them tied side by side on the same material, and examine their differences in detail.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 07:56:07 PM by X1 »

kd8eeh

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carrick X bend
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 12:19:27 AM »
by shear coincidence, i have been playing around with this same knot.  how i look at it, it is just two interlocked munter hitches, while another nice knot is two interlocked cow hitches.  there are indeed many knots that may be made as two hitches tied around other hitches.  it is nice to notice the similarity to a carrick bend.  i have some more results, but not enough time to share them right now

kd8eeh

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carrick X bend
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 05:29:31 AM »
Sorry for the delay.

So this knot is, at least in my opinion, simply a munter hitch tied around another munter hitch.  This is not unique, as a carrick bend also is a munter hitch tied around a munter hitch, as is a zepplin knot, granted the tails are tucked through the knot making it an overhand as well.  In fact, many zepplin family knots are very similar to a set of two interlocked munter hitches.

In an effort to use this, perhaps the most useful knot i have derived is tow interlocked cow hitches, making a very strong bend that could be exceedingly useful if for some reason you needed a bend that was flat and disk shaped.  Also, I have found that it is possible to interlock two zigzag hitches in a very similar way, but the resulting knot is bulky, cumbersome to tie, and has no added benefits to a simpler one.  I have tried many other simple hitches, and it seems that nearly any ring hitch can be tied around itself for a decent result, although it is often hard to untie.  the real problem is that many of these tend towards having the loaded ends perpendicular. 

Also, for a result surprisingly similar to this knot, try tying two halyard bends around each other, and you wind up with a remarkably similar knot.  I have not fully explored the potential of halyard bends as a hitch for these types of knots, but they do produce something rather like a doubled carrick x bend. 

Essentially, any hitch of two or fewer turns around the object with an inately perpendicular pull tends to make an fairly useful knot when tied around itself in another rope.  However, most of these hitches are cumbersome and have no added strength beyond a simple munter hitch, nor usefulness.  I do not know what it is about a munter hitch, but i figure it's in the method where the collar is loaded so as to incredibly reduce tension in the tail.  Any thoughts?

X1

  • Inactive
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1200
Re: Carrick X bend
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 04:38:53 PM »

kd8eeh

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carrick X bend
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2012, 06:11:23 AM »
It seems suprising how a munter hitch is never really given credit.  This link describes so many other interlocked knots, but at first, rough glance fails to mention a munter hitch, while some of what are praised as the most ideal knots are simply interlocked munter hitches.