Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 72014 times)

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #150 on: February 28, 2014, 04:30:09 AM »

Hi All,
         This double simple collar loop is well secure, little easier to tie then wrong consent loop , after loading 1400 lbs and find no       problem to untie it. these two loops look alike too.

            謝謝  alan lee.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #151 on: February 28, 2014, 04:35:28 AM »
  look alike loop

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #152 on: February 28, 2014, 05:33:43 AM »
   Alan, perhaps because it is 6.30 in the morning here, or because your pictures are not very informative, I do not understand the difference between your two loops...
   The tail does not penetrate the nipping loop, but it is secured on its rim, in a plane parallel to it, by the two legs of the collar in a way that reminds me of the very similar "Fontus bowline" - a variation of the "Janus bowline " ( Fontus was the son of Janus... :)).
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #153 on: February 28, 2014, 07:06:47 AM »

    Hi All,  Thanks for the reply Xarax. I have a better picture here to show the different.

               謝謝  alan lee.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #154 on: February 28, 2014, 02:30:11 PM »
   Thank you, Alan,

   I had just not imagined the "open" nipping bight of the "Wrong consent loop" - and my sight is not as good as it was during the last century !  :)

   Now, a humble advice : In your pictures, try to avoid having more than two ropes passing through the same crossing point, because it is difficult for the viewer to see the relative "over"/"under" position of the lower ropes, if they are three or four of them. See the blue circles in the attached pictures, to see what I mean.
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2014, 03:51:23 AM »

   Hi All,
            I have this double simple collar loop(left hand version) here,  she is more compact, more secure then the right hand version,
            after loading 1400 lbs. and found no problem to untie it.

            謝謝  alan lee.   

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2014, 04:45:07 AM »
   This is the left-hand version of the Double simple collar loop, presented by you at Replies#150-#153. I think it would be better to present the right-hand and the left-hand versions together, in one post, so the reader does not run the danger to get confused.
   I still believe that the Fontus bowline is simpler, closer to the common bowline and to the Janus secure bowlines, which are already well known by the knot tyers. I can not imagine that the left- or the right-hand Double simple collar loop would be sooo much better, regarding strength or easiness of untying, to persuade us to use this loop, and not the well known and simpler to remember how to tie and to tie Janus or Fontus bowlines. However, I can not be sure, of course ! Now you have started, go all the way !  :) Test all these loops - I mean, all the Janus- and Fontus-like bowlines, and all the "Link bowlines", at least those we believe that they should be stronger, where the nipping loop and the second collar around the eye leg encircle three or more rope diameters - and tell us which are easier to untie. Beware of their number, though, and the effort this would require. I have not counted them, but they are NOT few !  :)
   If I will have to select one of all those, I would select a TIB one, even if I will never tie it as TIB !  :) - so the Alpineer s TIB bowline (1) is still my favourite.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4697.0
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #157 on: March 05, 2014, 08:59:57 AM »
Hi All,
       Thanks for the comment Xarax. After little more test on these loops, start to like this left hand version (A), even though seem like it have less nipping force apply to the tail from standing part, but this nipping structure is a one continuous nipping loop, once the standing part pull on it, all the force will apply to all three points of the tail evenly. Beside this I found she is more smooth and compact loop then it classmate.
        謝謝  alan lee
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 09:04:18 AM by eric22 »

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #158 on: March 05, 2014, 09:33:15 AM »
   For people who have not followed all the recent posts, the loop at the upper part of your picture is the right-hand version.
   On the contrary, I like the B version !  :) The nipping loop and the collar around the eye leg are wider and rounder, more O-shaped than U shaped.
This is not a knot.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #159 on: March 07, 2014, 03:47:02 AM »
   You know Allan, I find it difficult to tie your latest bowlines without looking at your pictures ! They are so deceivingly similar to the Janus bowlines, that I always have to pay attention so I will NOT tie a corresponding Fontus-like bowline... If I will not be persuaded, by NUMBERS, that they are really better, re. slippage, untying-easiness and strength, to the Janus or the Link bowlines, where both legs of the collar go through the nipping loop, I will not tie them any longer - they put my brain in pain !  :) I have been tying bowlines for half a century now, and I just can not learn to tie something so close, but also so different than them. If they were really different knots, I would had no such problem, but with those "almost" Janus bowlines, with the first or the second leg of the collar passing out of the nipping loop, I am confused !  :)
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #160 on: March 08, 2014, 08:58:15 AM »

Hi All,
        The first picture here, both of loop need 3 step to tie and using almost same amount length of rope to tie these loops. only little difference on 2nd step, they tuck in difference place ,and need no extra effort for either of them. I cannot tell  which one is easier,  I thinks because we are so use to bowline, rabbit come out of the hole, have to go back the hole then there is a tail for the the nipping loop to grip on, this is the way we tie bowline we modify bowline, we are so use to it this way, any other way may make no sense to us.
even though it look quiet similar, these are two totally difference structure. I think we need time to familiar with this new structure.

I did few breaking test all three of my loops again Fontus bowline with small rope, so far I founded Lee's Double simple collar loop, right hand and left hand(B) version is stronger then Fontus bowline, and Fontus bowline is stronger then left hand version(A)
Just a few test may no enough, I will get more rope with difference size and test it again. next time will come with the picture.
also so far with maximum load I found Fontus bowline is the harder one to untie. all these loops here need the help from tail collar to untie.
see Second picture , Standing part eye leg of Fontus bowline didn't have the bow shape like my loop to crank tail collar backward to make room for easy untie.


Third picture, If there is loop beauty contest, I thinks Fontus bowline may not qualify for the entry.

謝謝  alan lee

 

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #161 on: March 08, 2014, 08:13:43 PM »
I cannot tell which one is easier,

Easier, conceptually, regarding the mental picture of the bowlines we already have, I can tell ! The Fontus bowline.

...because we are so used to the bowline, rabbit come out of the hole, have to go back into the hole...

  Me, for one, I do not use this popular ( but naive, and not revealing anything of the true mechanism of the bowline ) mental picture, but I still see the bowline as a three-limbs eyeknot, where the Tail End forms a "collar" around some of the three limbs, and then penetrates the nipping loop once, at least, more.

...even though they look quiet similar, these are two totally difference structures. I think we need time to familiar with this new structure.

  I guess I have been tying bowlines for too long, and I have not that much time left !  :)

...with maximum load, I found that the Fontus bowline is the harder one to untie.
All these loops here need the help from tail collar to be untied. ...the Standing part s eye leg of the Fontus bowline didn't have the bow shape, like my loop, to crank the tail collar backwards to make room for an easy untie..

   Good point. I have not tested a Fontus bowline under heavy loading, to be able to tell. However, if there is a substantial difference in the easiness to untie them, I think we have to abandon it in favour of your loops, that is for sure.
   Please, if you have the time and will, test, under the same conditions, the Alpineer s TIB bowline (1), which is my favourite for the time being.

  If there is a loop beauty contest, I think the Fontus bowline may not qualify for the entry.

   Oh, you killed it, Allan ! Not even qualify for the entry:) Is such an ugly beast ?  :)
   I agree, the Fontus bowline is NOT pretty... but neither are the similar loops you have tied here - compared with a real beauty, the Lie locked bowline you have forgotten !  :)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4697.0
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 08:14:47 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2014, 09:13:13 AM »
 Hi All,

       I have a improvement version of loop here, I call it Lee's Double simple collar loop (version A).
       The previous Lee's Double simple collar loop (right hand version), rename it to Lee's Double simple
       collar loop (version B)

       This (version A) have better collar, both version A and B are very well secure, so far I see this one
       continuous nipping loop when it apply pressure on to the nub, nothing had slip yet. I like (version A) more because
       the last portion of the tail are nipped more directly by the standing part eye leg, make you feel more secure.
       I am home, I did few load test with the smaller size rope, I found (version A) is easier to untie than (version B).

       How easy or hard to tie this class of loop ? people may said too complicate to tie, I may not agree with this.
       Bowline is easy to tie because it only have two collars, because Bowline is the King of the knot, and because
       you want to tie it.

       Now we are no happy with Bowline, we want more secure loop, here I have this four collar's loop here, and now you have to deal
       with two more collars, sure it will not be as easy as Bowline. 

       This (version A)  four collars compact loop, consume the least amount of length of rope to form this loop,
       there is no  unnecessary  move,  fit in and flow nicely in to the nub, all four collars doing the nipping work well, and one of the   
       collar give it all it can to the last part of the tail. Beside all those, you only need two step to untie the loop.
       How much more can we ask for.

      謝謝  alan lee
       
 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 01:12:19 PM by eric22 »

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2014, 03:02:03 PM »
   First, those two loops are NOT two "versions" of the same knot ! They are two different knots - as different as they could possibly be !  :)
   Starting from the second, its resemblance to the Ampersand TIB bowline is obvious - although, to my aging mind, at least, it has this drawback of the "strange" path the second leg of the collar follows, as it does NOT go through the nipping loop like the first one, as I use to expect... My mind has ceased to evolve !  :) I still find it easier to tie a bowline-like eyeknot where both legs of the collar pass through the nipping loop ( from the same, or even from opposite sides, as in the Mytrle-collar loops ). 
   However, the great thing with the Ampersand TIB eyeknot, which is absent here, is that it is a TIB eyeknot !  :) Having a loop that is PET AND TIB is a GREAT convenience, which nobody can deny !   :)
   Now, the first loop is an altogether different animal. It is also not a TIB eyeknot, and I do not see how one can change it to become one either. It looks complicated, and it is:)  However, this ( counter-clockwise, 180 degrees ) "twist" of the eye during its tying, right after the second stage, is an ingenious move ! ! ! I had not seen it before, and, of course, I had not thought of trying something like this, never ! It is a very simple yet potentially very productive move, which can generate many new eyeknots ! Twist the eye of the to-be-tied loop, in one stage of its tying, is a new idea, which deserves further exploration. Who knows how many more loops you can tie by implementing this...Moreover, IFF those loops just happen to be TIB, too  :), it would be a great thing, indeed !     
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 03:05:33 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2014, 08:10:35 AM »
 Hi All,
      Thanks for the reply Xarax, All I know all this class of loops is Double collar loop, I didn't pay attention
      and aware they are so much different.

      I have another two variation of loop here, I don't know what should I call them now.
      This two loops work as good as those previous two loops, well secure and easy to untie.

      謝謝  alan lee

« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 08:17:38 AM by eric22 »