Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 72774 times)

SS369

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2013, 11:50:37 PM »
You're welcome Alan.

Nice supplies! Now you will be in for a treat and see how real rope performs.  ;) :) ;D

Try your favorite loops and see what a difference the media makes.
Happy New Year!  Looking forward to many broken ropes in 2014.  ;D

SS

Sweeney

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #121 on: January 01, 2014, 01:31:26 PM »
Hi All,
         I have this simple locked bowline here, I thinks this one is better than  Lee s overhand locked bowline(B).     
       
         This simple lock is not a positive overhand knot, but it do act like a positive overhand knot. it use less material fit
         smoothly into the structure nub make it little more compact then Lee overhand locked bowline(B).     
       

Nice looking knot, Alan, particularly the reverse(?) in the middle picture of the three. As you say very easy to untie even in paracord and seems to work well in 10.5mm semi-static climbing rope.

Happy New Year to one and all.

Barry

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #122 on: January 02, 2014, 12:59:22 AM »

Hi All, 

       Thanks SS369,Sweeney.
       I have this beautiful loop here to share with and Happy New Year to all of you.
       
       謝謝   alan lee.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #123 on: January 03, 2014, 12:21:22 AM »
I have a 9/16 diameter rope and loaded heavy
...
Merry Christmas and Happy New year  and good luck to all of you.

Happy New Year 2014, Alan.
What exactly is "loaded heavy"
--what forces (pounds/kg), or how ... ?!

(E.g., Xarax I think now can do some body-weighting
in some manner(s)?  I can use a lousy 5:1 pulley with
body weight of approx. 175# --which could be bumped
with weights of even +130# (!)--, and can also impart
some shocks of jumping a little when suspended.
(and have actually used a sheepshank for shortening
my haul line in such loading, imagine that!   :D  )

Also, have you photo'd any such heavily loaded knot
tied in this 9/16" rope?  --have we even seen the rope?


--dl*
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alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2014, 12:50:02 PM »
Hi All,

        You are right Sweeney, this reverse version, l think she is better the it classmate,
        Not that hard to tie and inspect, very well secure, I like it.

         謝謝   alan lee.   

         (the rope is 7/16")
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 07:04:54 PM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2014, 12:53:22 PM »
Hi All,

        I like this Lee s lock bowline(left hand version)
        She is very nice too.

        謝謝   alan lee.

        (1/2" rope)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 07:05:55 PM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2014, 01:04:16 PM »
Hi All,

        Dan I got photos and weight info and how I test this loop with 7/16" blue water rope.
        Hope you like it.

        謝謝   alan lee.
       
       
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 07:07:34 PM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2014, 01:26:32 PM »

    Hi All,

            Dan, I have this 9/16" solid brace rope here, she is kind softer then blue water rope.
            After I got the weight on, I bounce it about 6" up and down for 10 time, and here are
            the photo result of the the loop.

            You have a great day.

             謝謝   alan lee.
           

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2014, 01:29:20 PM »
  Hi Dan,

            Two more photos here

            謝謝   alan lee.

xarax

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #129 on: January 06, 2014, 11:25:16 PM »
  To post #110 :
  I think I understood what you were trying to do : By crossing the Tail this way ( see the attached picture, inside the blue circle ), you avoid some of the MANY different dressings all those bowlines with a fig.8 - shaped collar structure can take ( but not ALL...). However, personally I consider this "un-natural", so to speak, over/under crossing at this point, as a "kink": The strands are inter-weaved too much, you do not really need them to jump the one over the other all over the place... They better follow parallel paths as long as possible, so the overall distribution of forces is spread over more extended areas, and the knot s nub remains more compact / less voluminous and more easy / less confusing to inspect. ( When the over/under crossings are fewer, the eye can trace each individual part of the rope easier ) - but this generates the danger of a too tight knot, difficult to untie...  Crossing the two parts of the Tail otherwise, you drive your working end along a much smoother, nice path - and you end up with the Lee s locked bowline !  :)
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #130 on: January 07, 2014, 12:23:50 AM »
...easy to tie, easy to check...

  Easy to tie, perhaps - because the last segment of the Tail retraces the path of the returning eye leg. However, I do not find it easy to check / inspect, not at all ! The "back" side of the knot is very nice, with this pair of adjacent rings ( the two "low" collars ) around this pair of adjacent and parallel straight lines ( the last segment of the Tail and the returning eye leg). Unfortunately, the "front side" looks ( to my eyes ) a real mess, with THREE lines crossing each other at one point - a triple "kink" ! Especially the Tail, before it makes it final U-turn and becomes parallel to the returning eye leg, jumps over the eye leg of the Standing Part in a very oblique = unstable and ugly angle.
  With the rather soft braided ropes you use, you can squeeze the lines, flatten them, and make those kinks look less pronounced. Tied on stiff, uncompressible kernmantle ropes which retain their round cross section, the kinks can not be smoothened out, and the nub can not take the compact form shown in your pictures. When the lines cross each other at very oblique angles, they can not "bite" each other hard and deep, so the one can not remain stable, canalized into the groove formed on the surface of the other. This means that they are more free to move sideways relatively to each other, so the knot is not very stable at their mutual crossing point. ( I am glad you did nt post it at reply#75... :) )

  To post #112:

  I, too, like the secure way the tail is squeezed in between the two parallel legs of the collar, and them stems out of them, at right angles - but not anything else. I am afraid. In particular, the "lock", the last overhand knot, is placed too low, almost outside the rest of the knot. More important is the almost one rope diameter around which the tail is forced to turn, in order to tighten the overhand knot, in both loops. This is because, although the lines it goes around are two, the one is placed "under" / lower than the other, so the Tail makes a sharp turn around the (lower) one only of them. I suspect that the knot will remain secure, because the tail is already locked in between the two legs of the collar, but that the final overhand knot will remain slack most of the time - that is, it will look like it is redundant. One would have to pull the tail from time to time. in order to make this overhand knot as compact as possible, and, in doing this, the almost one-rope-diameter turn would be an obstacle. Stiff ropes are more like vertebrates, not molluscs !  :)

 
  I don't see anything wrong with it, I find very easy to untie. she don't look bad at all.
 
   There is nothing wrong with it, and it is not bad at all, but I believe you wish something more than negations of negatives !  :)  Although the lines meet each other at right angles. mostly - which is always a good thing, re. security -, and although there are no sharp one-rope-diameter turns anywhere, and although one can even say that there is almost a pattern of braided / interweaved lines there, to my eyes this thing still looks more like hastily knitted than meticulously knotted... I do not doubt that it can be untied very easily, because, usually, this pattern of over/under lines, crossing each other at non-oblique, almost right angle angles, is a sign of a very secure knot, which will "lock", and will block any further inner movement and shrinkage within it long before it becomes too compact and rock-solid - that is. long before it can possibly jam, to any degree. However, this pattern is not as clearly implemented as I would had wished it to be - so, to my mind, the original beautiful Lee s locked bowline is still a much better knot. Perhaps I would need some time to digest it a little more, but, for the time being, I can feel that it is not my cup of tea. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 02:53:45 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #131 on: January 07, 2014, 02:51:14 AM »
  This simple lock is not a positive overhand knot, but it does act like a positive overhand knot. It uses less material, it fits smoothly into the structure of the nub...

  Aha ! This is an altogether new idea ! No need for the overhand knot any more. No wonder that some old foxes picked it up at once... I believe this simple locked bowline deserves further study, indeed - however I am not sure that the "reverse" form will offer much more than the original non-reversed one.
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #132 on: January 07, 2014, 06:56:02 AM »
Hi All,
       
       Thanks for the value comments Xarax, you give me some answer that I am not able to answer myself.
       謝謝  alan lee. 


       "correction"  Some how I have giving the wrong dimension of my force multiplying tensioning device, the aluminum bar is 7/8" diameter
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 07:14:39 AM by eric22 »

xarax

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #133 on: January 08, 2014, 03:11:22 AM »
  To answer is easy - what is much more difficult is to find out which are the questions that can be answered. And the really difficult thing is to create the things themselves that generate questions ! ( I guess that is why people are still building temples to somebody who never asked a question to me - or, for that matter, never asked a question to anybody else, I suppose - about anything He created... :)) Keep creating knots, and leave the rest, third-class part, to us.  :)
  I do not like the "reversed" "Sweeney s variation". I feel that :1, the returning eye leg - which is tensioned most of the time - should, in this case, better be connected directly to the "high" collar around the standing end, so this collar would never run the danger to remain slack and thus allow the nipping loop to open up and disintegrate into an helical turn, and, : 2,  the "lock" ( the "low" collar around the rim of the nipping loop ) would involve the Tail end as much as possible, as the last line of defence against slippage. If between the returning eye leg and the "high" collar around the standing end, there is this intermediate very tight "low" collar / round turn around the rim of the nipping loop and the Tail end, I think that a substantial part of the tension which keeps the one limb of the nipping loop ( the standing end ) firmly attached to the other ( the eye leg of the standing part ) at the crossing point, will be uploaded too soon. Now, in the somewhat similar case of the "Link bowlines", this "low" collar around the rim of the nipping loop is never very tight, so any pull from the returning eye leg could be transported through the "low" collar around the rim of the nipping loop and reach, indirectly but easily, the 'high" collar around the standing part - and so it can always retain the required tension which pushes the two limbs of the nipping loop towards each other and secures the integrity of the nipping loop itself as a closed loop. Also, I think that a lock should be a lock should be a lock, and a lock of the bowline should secure the Tail end by forcing it to fully participate into an added structure - not just pass through it, as in the case of the "reverse" variation. Just my two pence on the "reverse" variation of this interesting locked bowline ( so, not even an answer !  :)).
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #134 on: January 08, 2014, 05:13:05 PM »
...  The strands are inter-weaved too much, you do not really need them
to jump the one over the other all over the place ... .  They better follow
parallel paths as long as possible, so the overall distribution of forces is spread
over more extended areas, and the knot s nub remains more compact / less voluminous
and more easy / less confusing to inspect.  ...
+1 !
The securing of the tail / knot are better with the crossing
reversed at Xarax's circled point, the tail then well nipped
by a twin-strand bearing upon it.  (And I think that it is this
revised version that is somewhere sketched among my
papers.)  There is the variance in the revision of whether
the tail is pulled sharply to lie between eye legs or to be
on the outside --a matter of dressing & setting.  Having
it inside is probably better.


--dl*
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