Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 61139 times)

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2013, 03:10:12 PM »
   Nice knot, Alan. Congratulations. Simple, easy, transparent, almost straightforward. Secure the tail, by the easiest possible way
   What I like most in this is its simple concept - that makes it very easy to remember, to tie and to inspect, relatively to other more convoluted secure bowlines you have presented.
  Just  an overhand knot, tied with the end of the second leg of the collar ( the ex-tail ) , around the first leg of the collar and the eye leg of the tail side,. Elementary, my dear Allan !  :)
   It is such a simple solution that I would be surprized if it is not already tied in the past - but I have been surprised many times in the past !  :)
   A notable secure bowline, indeed .

SS369

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2013, 01:39:44 AM »
This is a nice loop knot indeed, according to my own investigation.  I have been trying and tying variations of the standard bowline incorporating an overhand knot into the tail structure at every place I can think of. It makes for some very secure loops, although I have not found one that is not jam prone, this included.

Thank you Alan for bringing it to us with a good photo display.

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X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2013, 01:52:35 AM »
I have been trying and tying variations of the standard bowline incorporating an overhand knot into the tail structure at every place I can think of.

! ! !  Elementary, my dear SS369.  :)  ( Yet, it had never crossed my mind...)

...although I have not found one that is not jam prone, this included.
 
   Too bad for this simple nice eyeknot ! So, it seems that we should abandon the overhand. Let us now try the fig.8, at every place we can think of.
 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 01:54:05 AM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2013, 03:46:37 AM »
Not too bad if you want a neat, relatively enduring loop.

Eight based from here on? Go for it. ;-)

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X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2013, 04:24:29 PM »
the Pretzel [nipping turn] has those two "odd"  X s = two crossings, one at each side, which disturb the smooth, nice flow of the lines we see within and around the nub of the Girth - hitch based loop
   See the attached pictures, for an explanation of what I try to say here. Inside the yellow circles, you can see the two "crossings", each at each side, the two "kinks", where the angle of the two strands that meet each other there is very small, and the one goes "over" the other, like a riding turn. Those two strands do not meet each other at the optimum angle re. friction, the right angle, neither they remain parallel to each other - parallel strands mean a smooth flow and more extended distribution of the tensile forces, and easy to inspect, good-looking knots ! Look at the Lee s locked bowline : no kinks whatsoever ! Look at the pseudo-Zeppelin loop (1) : No "kinks" whatsoever, too.
    On the contrary, the Pretzel hitch nipping turn + shape "8" collar structure eyeknot you show has two kinks, and the Girth hitch nipping turn + shape "8" collar structure  has one. That is why I prefer the later from the former - although the Pretzel hitch is more stable than the Girth hitch.
   If we wish to present post-eye-tiable alternatives to the most beautiful and smooth retraced fig.8 knot, we should better reduce the number of those ugly "kinks" as much as possible.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.msg24546#msg24546
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 04:28:36 PM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2013, 05:19:40 AM »
Hi All, 

Thanks for the comments SS and X1, Thanks for the support and encouragement from both of you.
X1 Thanks  for your valuable time to reply on all my knots all these days for guiding me every step, without you I won't be able to create the few good looking knot. Thanks again.

I think my bowline run is almost completed to the end. That all I can do for (Bowline and Eskimo nipping mix with overhand and figure 8 knots,)  I am going to concentrate and learn how to do the test on few of the loops.

Hopefully I can find some spare time to create new knots in the near future.

I have two loops here, have the same structure, just  the tail exit at the difference side of the main nipping loop, both of them are secured, compact, no problem to untie after loaded the loop. may be loop (IMG_1413) little more secure then loop (IMG_1412) .
P/S  I realize the structure set up very weird, and difficult to tie too.   
Thanks   alan lee.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 02:50:16 PM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2013, 05:34:33 AM »
   Hi Alan, and thank you for the good words. The knot were tied by you, and you only, I had only played the role of a willing audience.
   Regarding those two loops, I do not like that the eye leg of the Tail side is not connected more directly to the nipping turn. It seems to me that it can slide downwards, along the eye leg of the Standing Part side, and drag the tail with it - because of its link with the collar, and of the collar with the tail ! May be it will not because it can not, but certainly it looks like it can, and this is, at least for purely psychological reasons, not a good thing ( for the climber, the rescue worker, etc,. who should always work with the maximum piece of mind...)
   I hope you will find the time to TEST some of the loops you had tied, regarding security when tied on very slippery materials, or strength. We have reached a point where we NEED test more than anything else, before we can proceed further.
   Good luck !
   
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 05:53:18 AM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2013, 06:36:02 AM »
Hi 75RR,

Beautyful work,I like it very much. Nice to have you with your great efforts and contribution to this forum.
Thanks you very much.

I have some fast knot videos at youtube, I did mention it a few time in this forum, in case you and all other miss it , I like to share it with all of you, it call  alanleeknots  at youtube.
Hope you like it.   

Thanks     alan lee.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #98 on: July 26, 2013, 07:35:53 AM »
Hi All,

I have a loop here, it seem like well secure, and after loaded the loop, I find very easy to untie,I don't see anything wrong with it.(may be I am wrong) when we take the bowline nipping away, the tail part have no knot on it.

Your comment is valuable to me, so far with all the knots that I have posted, whether is good or bad knots, I do learn something from your comments.

Have a great day.   alan lee.



X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #99 on: July 26, 2013, 11:00:24 AM »
   You see the Tail and the Eye leg of the Tail part, as they are encircled by the "lower" collar ? What prevents them of being dragged by the legas of this collar, and be "swallowed" into the nipping turn ? Their stiffness, the fact that they work in tandem as a stiff toggle, that can not pass through the nipping turn. This is the last thing we should do, if we are not forced to do it, because the stability of our knot would depend on the "knotted material" too much ! We do not know if it will hold in the case the knot is tied on soft and slippery materials.
   Anyway, the Lee s locked bowline offers all this knot offers, with the same amount of complexity, and without been forced to rely on this material-depended toggle mechanism.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:14:00 AM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #100 on: August 05, 2013, 08:58:36 AM »
Hi All,
Thanks for the reply X1. I have a fix loop ( figure + over hand knot ),  well secure, compact and  easy to untie.
She seem fine to me. Well come for any comment.

Thanks    alan lee.

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2013, 11:11:55 AM »
   I can not start by anything else than my disappointment you have abandoned the PET camp.
   I do nor see why one has to tie such a complex knot on the Standing Part, ante-the-eye... Even if you like very much the shape of it, (as I do...), you could well tie a simpler overhand knot, in its nice 8-shaped form. An overhand knot is more than enough to serve as an anchor for the eye leg of the Tail - because a topologically equivalent to the unknot single nipping turn IS already enough !
   There are HUNDREDS of eyeknots that can be tied with an overhand-knot based nipping structure, and an overhand knot based bight component structure ( collar structure ). None of them seems better or worse than the other - all are mediocre eyeknots, that are not PET, and are not even anything else...
   If you wish to start from a fixed fig.8 knot tied on the Standing part, you are very close to THE Fig. 8 eyeknot, so I do not see the reason for this... Perhaps you wish to tie a knot that is easier to untie, than the retraced fig. 8 knot. In this, you have succeeded, indeed. I have modified your knot a little bid, re-arranging the strands so they remain parallel to each other, and do not form "kinks" of riding turns over round turns below them, and I arrived at the familiar "smooth" knot shown in the first picture. Then, I tried this slightly re-dressed knot in my laboratory, and find it non-jamming, even after 64 alternate loadings with my full body weight, jumping on a loop hanged from the kitchen ceiling s heating pipe...( See the attached pictures ). Definitely a non-jamming eyeknot - the manipulation / twisting of its two collars is enough to be untied very easily. However, I have seen that the last turn of the Tail was left rather lose, and this tells us that the "last line of defence" is redundant - not a good sign for a knot which has to work as a whole, by the balanced contribution of each and every individual strand inside its nub.
   If you wish to start from a fig.8 knot, you can see the many fig.8 based bends I have submitted in this forum (1). Or, you can start from the HFP adjustable loop, shown by roo at his "Notable" knots index site, which is nothing more than an "Eskimo"- like noose, based on the fig. 8 knot. Not bad a knot ( roo s knots have this in their favour, they are not bad - just most of them are mediocre, and even the superb ones, as the bowline or the Zeppelin bend, he does not understand - or, if he does, he does not wish to say - how they work, as structures...). However, you know what the best nipping structure for a noose is, because you have already used it in a bowline of yours - which, on top of all the rest ( being stable and secure ), it is also PET : The "Eskimo"- like one based on the Pretzel, or Reversed Girth hitch double nipping turn (2). The common Girth hitch, or the 8 loop based ones are also not bad, and they do not jam as the Clove hitch based one does (3), although they are less stable than the Pretzel / Reversed Girth hitch adjustable loop. Start from those strong, stable and secure nipping structures, and weave your working end around their PET nipping structures, to form nice bight component structures ( collar structures ).

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3148.0
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4464.0
 
   
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 09:20:39 PM by SS369 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2013, 01:32:34 AM »
Hi All,
        I have tied many over hand knot into bowline, seem like I miss this one here, well secure easy to tie and easy to untie.
        She seem alright to me. as long as you dress it up nicely.

        謝謝   alan lee

        I see the warning sign, this topic passed 120 days, I don't know where to go, If I am in the wrong place, please let me know.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 01:34:39 AM by eric22 »

SS369

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2013, 03:41:55 AM »
Hi Alan.
I'll give your latest offer a whirl. Thank you!

You are in the "right place". If you feel that this addition does not belong in the "Look alike loops" thread we can move it.

For those with a question about the warning about the topic being 120 days old. It is just an advisory to alert the poster to refrain from "bumping". If the poster is truly adding something of merit, germane to the thread, please do so.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2013, 06:29:08 AM »
...
Perhaps you wish to tie a knot that is easier to untie than the retraced fig. 8 knot.
In this, you have succeeded, indeed.  I have modified your knot a little bid-t,
re-arranging the strands so they remain parallel to each other, ...

I tried this slightly re-dressed knot in my laboratory,and find it non-jamming, even after 64 alternate loadings with my full body weight, jumping on a loop hanged from the kitchen ceiling's heating pipe...
( See the attached pictures ).  Definitely a non-jamming eyeknot :
the manipulation / twisting of its two collars is enough to be untied very easily.
However, I have seen that the last turn of the Tail was left rather loose,
and this tells us that ...

... the tyer did not set the knot well!   ;)
Indeed, the overhand component of *my*
"Lehman8" should be set tight, in part to shape
the passage of the SPart into what I thought
(and will keep hoping, in some materials...)
would be a strong curvature of the SPart.

cf.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474


--dl*
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