Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 61929 times)

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2013, 07:44:45 AM »
Hi All,
Since over hand knot can fit in right hand bowline, might as well give left hand bowline a try, this time the tail has to go around the cross over of the nipping loop to make it smooth. I do a simple test with small rope on both loops, loaded it with heavy object, right hand bowline can untie quiet easy, left hand bowline is easier to loosen the tail collar first and then the rest come apart easy.
Bowline is Bowline secure enough for general use, now the tail extend two u turn and go around the left leg and thought the rabbit hole and out, and form a over hand knot, and two difference part of the tail in between the two u turn are nipped by the nipping loop, and there are 3 ropes diameter in the nipping loop, these loop with the double parallel segments make it look beautiful and compact too. with all these I am sure it will increase the security of the bowline, to what degree I don't know? we may need to do more test with difference ropes and my be extreme test in order to know how well it will hold on. I have a job out of town for year, no much I can do.
I am very happy,  I can do a simple analysis on my own knot, I am improving every day since I join this forum, look back at the very beginning, I don't even know what is nipping loop mean.  EASY ON ME, if my analysis don't make sense to you. and hope you understand my broken english.
Thanks X1, Dan and all other had been reply to my post, you speed thing up for me.
Thanks   alan lee.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2013, 10:10:53 PM »
**correction second picture had replace, this is the picture i meant to attach IMG_1278 (variation) 2

Hi All,
I have two loops here are the variation of the loops above .Now may make it more confuse and more difficult to tie these loops.
Regardless of "perfection", it is the fact that it can be tie it this way. I thinks there are few more of my loops can do the same thing, when ever I am free again, I will dig it out and post it here.
Thanks    alan lee.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 06:54:39 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2013, 11:34:54 PM »
   Regardless of "perfection", the fact is that it can be tied this way.

   However, after the knot tyer has exhausted ALL the ways, and has tied ALL the possible "similar" knots that happen to belong to a certain class, he would feel the need/temptation to classify, and then "rank" each one of them, according to some criteria - and one of those criteria would always be the "compactness" of a knot and the "smoothness" of its lines - which is probably what you call "perfection".
   To my view, of all the knots you had presented at those last posts of yours, the "third variation" ( in its left- or its right-hand form ) is the most "perfect" one, by far ( and the second one, shown in the previous post, the least ...:) ). A very secure and very beautiful "locked" bowline, which deserves further examination. I believe you should re-post it in the " Simple lock for the bowline" thread - and find a better name ! :)

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2013, 07:44:27 AM »
Hi X1,
Thanks you for letting me know there is a fat lady in there, I don't like her too. 
I have four variation of loops here, I like the two variation of IMG_1277, as your advise make the overhand knot turn around its crossing point of the nipping loop, she really look good and well secure.
Thanks   alan  lee.

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2013, 09:59:49 AM »
   That is what you have to suffer, in order to tie ALL the possible knots that belong to a certain class...You tie all those fat ugly ladies, sitting next to your shinning beauty !  :) Usually I do not post "similar" knots that are so inferior to their classmates, but this may be wrong : Comparisons to the less "perfect" knots do reveal the advantages of the "perfect" ones, at a glance.
   Regarding the Lee s locked bowline ( my provisional name for the "third variation" ), I have to say two things : first, I am not sure which one of the two variations is more secure - however, the right-hand one, which is a "proper" locked bowline, is probably more easy to remember how to tie and to tie. I have tested both variations with three very different 6-8mm cords ( the one being a solid braided one, very similar to the one you use to show the knots in your pictures ) and submitted them in 32 alternating 100 kgr. loadings each. They were very easy to untie, while the Luca s and Oracle s loops, which were submitted to the same torture, were jammed badly. So, a beautiful post-eye-tiable knot, which, at least in the "right-hand" variation is a simple "bowline lock", which is very secure, easy to remember how to tie and to easy and quick to tie, and does not jam. We could nt order something more, could we ? 

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2013, 01:51:32 AM »
Hi All,
Here is a figure + over hand loop, it look quite similar to Lee s locked bowline. except when it loaded.
Thanks for the reply X1.      alan lee.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2013, 12:27:02 AM »
Hi  X1,  Thanks you very much, here is the picture of loops.
Thanks   alan lee.

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2013, 03:53:23 AM »
   Alan, can you, please, forget those dressings ? Both of them !  :)  The dressing of the original, genuine Lee s Locked bowline is a much better knot !
   ( See the first attached picture, and the third and fourth picture, for a left- and right-hand Lee s Locked bowline, in a front and a back view).
   Now, regarding those two dressings of the variation of the loop, shown in the previous post, as I had said at Reply#72 :
   
   I prefer the ... "second" variation, where the turn around the standing part s leg lies "outside" the nipping loop. Those double parallel segments form a very nice, compact knot, no question about that. However, I still do not like the somewhat odd sight of a simple, single AND narrow nipping loop entangled within such a complex, double collar. Something like a very fat, tall woman embraced by a very thin, short man... :) . At the other, the "first" variation, the nipping loop is wider, indeed, but the dressing is more tricky, and requires some care, otherwise the knot, under heavy loading, will degenerate into the "second" variation

 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 04:00:35 AM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2013, 12:57:52 AM »
Hi  All, I modify my Lee s Eskimo bowline (B), now she is true (double nipping loop / double collar) loop, very well secure. quiet compact, may be little harder to tie, I don't know you call it bulky or not, no problem to untie after loading with heavy object. well come your comment.
Thanks again X1.

Thanks   alan lee.



X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2013, 08:00:30 AM »
   Hi Alan,
  Another beautiful compact double nipping loop / double collar loop . One can also consider it as a modification of your double collar "Eskimo" 8 bowline, you had presented earlier (1).
   When I tie such loops, I try to alleviate the burden carried by the collar structure as much as possible - so I try to figure out which nipping structure would be more self-stabilizing, i.e., be able to retain its "closed" compact form even if the collar structure gets very loose. A well-balanced self-stabilized nipping structure, by itself, without the need of any substantial participation on behalf of the collar structure, is the key to any secure bowline. Following this line of thought, I had tied the Girth hitch - based "Eskimo" double collar bowline presented at (2) - a very similar eyeknot with the one you show here.( See the attached pictures). If you examine both knots in detail, you will see that, in the Girth hitch - based "Eskimo" bowline. the standing part s eye leg is leaving the knot s nub from the centre of the "lower" collar - so the nipping structure used there ( a common Girth hitch ) is more self-stabilizing that the nipping structure you use here ( a part of a more complex, thee-coil Girth hitch ). If you tie both loops with veeery loose collar structures, and you start loading them, you will see that the common Girth hitch would be able to hold the penetrating strands of the collar structure, remaining compact and retaining a large portion of its initial balance, while the more complex nipping structure you use will start to twist, it will lose its initial orientation, and degenerate into a common double nipping loop - which is not a self-stabilizing nipping structure !
   Now, all these are but mere estimations based on the geometrical properties of the unloaded, or the loosened knots. In a well dressed, pre-tightened, and heavy loaded knot, I can not say what will happen - and I am sure that I can not even imagine many things that will happen !  :)  For example, the "lower" collar of your knot, itself shrunk by the pull of the returning eye leg, may be able to pull the standing part s eye leg towards its centre, and, so it may help the nipping structure to retain its initial, perpendicular to the standing end orientation.
 
1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg24806#msg24806
 

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2013, 08:18:54 PM »
Hi X1,  I think you got thing mixed up here, the loop on reply #83 are the same with your (Double Girth hitch Eskimo bowline), the difference is left and right hand version only.
When Lee s Eskimo bowline (A) turn into double nipping loop / double collar loop and loading it, with loose collars she will start to twist, and  will lose its initial orientation.

Anyway I have another variation here based upon a Pretzel-like two interlinked  nipping loops structure, she seem fine too. The second picture as you said I leave the collars loose and loaded it, she still able to stay in stable form.

The third picture is my simple tool to load and test my knots, is a piece of 1 1/2" x 5 1/2 " x 5 feet wood (in Canada we called it 2x6) drilled 1 1/4" hole and 1" deep and 2" apart, with a aluminum bar rounded the end , it is 3/4" diameter x 35" long, it can generate good 5 time the force that I pull on the rope. hope you like it.   Thanks again X1.
Thanks      alan lee

   "correction"  Some how I have giving the wrong dimension of my force multiplying tensioning device, the aluminum bar is 7/8" diameter
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 07:17:33 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2013, 09:20:55 PM »
  I think you got thing mixed up here, the loop on reply #83 are the same with your (Double Girth hitch Eskimo bowline), the difference is left and right hand version only.
   Noope !  :)  Just follow the Standing Part, after it enters into the knot s nub : How many turns does it make, before it forms the rim of the "upper" collar ( the collar around the standing end ) ?
  Two, in the case of "your" loop - One, in the case of "my" loop. Mirror symmetry does not affects numbers:)

  Your new loop, based on a Pretzel-like nipping structure, is fine, indeed - and those two crossed round turns keep the eye leg of the standing part aligned at the centre of the "lower" collar and of the whole nub - a more balanced arrangement than the one you had used in your previous loop. I, too, had used this nipping structure a number of times, and I have seen that it is very tight and stable - but I have not been able to persuade anybody about this !  :)  See how efficient it is, its superb gripping power and its great inherent stability, even in the case of a simple adjustable "Eskimo"-like loop, where there is no collar structure at all.
   However, in the case of a double nipping loop / double collar bowline, I believe that the Pretzel-based nipping structure does not offer anything more than what the simple, much easier to tie and inspect Girth hitch does. Also, the Pretzel has those two "odd"  X s = two crossings, one at each side, which disturb the smooth, nice flow of the lines we see within and around the nub of the Girth - hitch based loop. So, although I, too, was seduced by the Pretzel nipping structure ( when used in "common" as well as in  "Eskimo"- like eyeknots ), now I have "returned" to the more simple Girth hitch.... Anyway, both loops are almost equivalent in every aspect, and my recent preference for the Girth hitch-based one might be nothing more than a matter of personal prejudices or taste. De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum...
  I do like your laboratory, very much ! I hope that I will persuade you to proceed, and perform some destructive tests some day, so we can have an idea about the ultimate strength of all those loops.
 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 09:28:08 PM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2013, 06:18:14 PM »
Hi All, I have a loop here, everyone would see it is cowboy bowline + what structure s loop, but I said it is a figure 8 structure + bowline nipping loop s loop. because  I start with figure 8 knot and fit the bowline nipping loop into it, this  is how I create it.
This loop I am is not sure you call it complicate to tie or not, well secure and compact, after loading with difference size of ropes find no problem to untie it.
It have the main nipping loop and auxilialy nipping loop at the end part of the left leg, when I apply load to this loop, the aux nipping loop is just snug and not doing much, because the main nipping loop grab it hard, the left leg only travel very little and stop,  nothing transfer to the aux loop, so  I guess this Aux loop only act at an emergency nipping loop, good thing I found the aux loop is holding the tail kind of parallel to the lower half of the main nipping loop, it offer softer cushion more smooth and round turn for nipping loop,and  the tail are in the middle and kind of embrace by the nipping loop, it make the nipping loop nipped more effectively. and also reduce the friction on the cross over to the main nipping loop.

I  had severer destruction test with 5/16" rope, I tied my loop on one end and normal bowline the other end, all the normal bowline broken at the cross over on the nipping loop.  I hope my analysis make sense to you, If it is not please correct me.

Thanks again X1,  In the future i will find time to gather all the tool to do the destruction test to finish my project.

Thanks  alan lee.
 

SS369

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2013, 06:38:57 PM »
Hello Alan, thank you for another offering.

I followed your explanation well enough, the pictures helped!

I would suggest that when you do your testing, comparing to the "standard" bowline is good and it shows that your project loop fairs better. Now what happens when you compare it to another tied the same?
If you can contribute pictures of the loops (winner and loser) I would love to see them.

Thank you for sharing your explorations!

SS

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2013, 06:19:32 AM »
Hi All,
Thanks for the reply SS. I love to do the testing, when ever I have more spare time, I will get some Blue water rope and  start with some of the loops that I have, test it one by one again standard bowline, take some picture and I will post it here.

I have another variation of the loop from ( reply #87 picture IMG_1399 ), the structure  function are the same, the front view look the exactly same, the back view just slightly different.  new variation have 3 rope diameter on aux nipping.  (IMG_1399) have 2 rope diameter , but it look lot smooth then the  new one.
I don't know which one more secure. I have leave it to you guys.

I loaded the new variation loop, the aux loop are little tighter then (IMG_1399), I think because the left  leg is kind of parallel to nipping loop near the standing part side, and also the left leg was in the middle of the aux loop, which mean the main nipping loop's force need more time to get to the left leg ,  that give little time for left leg to pull  little slack out of the aux loop. Hope you understand what I mean.
Please give me your comments.

Thanks   alan lee.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 06:26:47 AM by eric22 »