Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 76600 times)

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2013, 04:44:05 AM »
  A Janus bowline - one of the many possible (1). See Pictures #30, #31, at (2). Also, see the attached picture for yet another one. Most of those two-collars ( or, "two bights" ) eyeknots are easy to tie and secure "locks" of the common or the "Eskimo" (-) bowlines.
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3150.msg19418#msg19418
2. http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/Bowlines_Analysis.pdf

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2013, 09:44:44 AM »
Hi All, Thanks again X1, I have two more loops here, both of them are compact and solid loops, both nipping loops are doing the work well, but the same situation very complicate to tie.

I think when we want to have extra nipping loop and collar, has to have more length of rope, and the rope have to travel more distant to get there.

Well I thinks that all I can do to the bowlin, my holiday is over, time for me to report to my work.

Good Luck to All of you.
Thanks,  alan lee

« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 09:48:40 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2013, 04:08:57 PM »
  The first loop shown utilizes this very stable "twisted Pretzel" collar, that is a very tight form, indeed - either as a nipping structure ( first attached picture ) or as a collar structure ( second attached picture ). However, the way that it is interweaved within your knot is not as straightforward and easy to remember, as I would have wished it to be : I can not see a reason, a clear idea, or a pattern, that would enable the knot tyer to understand and memorize the particular way this collar structure is entangled to the nipping loop. For example, why the first collar around the eye leg of the standing part does not go around / through the nipping loop, as one would have expected ? A practical knot has to be a simple knot, and a simple knot has to serve a reason, a clear idea, or has to be based on an easy to recognize and to follow visual / mental pattern.
  The second loop utilizes a shape "8' nipping loop, perpendicular to the axis of the loading. I believe that a Constrictor-like "8" structure is a tighter, better balanced and more symmetric knot for this purpose. (1). However, I am not sure that any perpendicular "8" shaped nipping structure, be it the shape "8" form you use or the Constrictor-like shape "8" form I had used, can be stabilized in this position by such a very simple collar structure : if the eye legs will be loaded unevenly, the knot s nub will lean towards the one or the other direction. If the knot will happen to be compact and strong when it leans towards the one eye leg, the chances are that it would not be so compact or so strong when it will lean towards the other. A possible asymmetry of the loading would not matter much when an elongated shape "8* nipping structure is placed parallel to the axis of loading, but it would have unknown consequences when it will be placed perpendicular to it. An "Eskimo" type (-)bowline is probably a more self-stabilizing  / stable solution in such cases.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg26753#msg26753

Luca

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2013, 02:57:52 AM »
Hi,

The feature of the loop below that immediately catches the eye,is that it is really ugly!(Alan,I apologize if I allow myself to use this thread to present this bad stuff!)I made this knot a few days ago as an attempt to "curve" the  leg(s) of the collar,inspired by the Bowline presented by alpineer http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4321.0 .I do not think that X1 meant something similar when he wrote about "perpendicular to the axis of the loading Constrictor-like 8 "in the post above.When properly set,the loop does not seem to behave badly (but I'm not good at test knots), and is easy to untie.If someone wants,can try both versions:if one stops at the end of the rope in red in the diagram, the curvature of the first leg of the collar would remain more pronounced, if one continues "with the green", the curvature is attenuated (but the two legs of the collar's bight  around the standing part should instead curves a little more).

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« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 03:03:19 AM by Luca »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2013, 08:31:59 AM »
Hi Luca, you are very welcome, we all come here to discuss , share and learn, we have the same goal,  through the exchange,   regardless of "perfection",sometimes it is the ideas of another that can instigate sparks of creativity.

Thanks  alan lee.
 

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2013, 09:02:56 AM »
   The "red" eye leg will be free to pull the "blue" one, and vice versa - and any heavy ring loading would also tend to twist the knot s nub, while the weak collar structure will not be able to stabilize it in one definite final form. See the first two attached pictures for the most "natural" and easy to remember solutions, where the returning eye leg penetrates the two openings of the shape "8" double nipping loop from the opposite side, and along one, straight line. ( Those bowlines can also be considered as variations / implementations of a twisted / reversed "Constrictor" bowline. Compare them with the untwisted, plain Constrictor bowline, shown in the last picture ). Not so ugly any more... :) Of course, doing this, the shape "8" does not remain perpendicular to the axis of loading - but, contrary to the "Tresse" bowline, that may be an advantage here.
   The issue one has to deal with those double nipping structures, is how they will remain self-stabilizing and compact, while, at the same time, they will not absorb the greater amount of the flow of the tensile forces converging into them from their three limbs... because, if that happens, they will not nip the penetrating tail sufficiently hard - the tensile/constricting forces will be "wasted" within the nipping structure itself, and the collar structure will be allowed to slip through the nipping structure without much resistance. ( In particular, we seek nipping structures where the first curve of the standing part and/or the first curve of the returning eye leg would bite the last portion of the tail.)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:26:22 AM by X1 »

Luca

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2013, 11:30:26 PM »
Hi Alan,

I thank you for your kind words,but equally I want to try to "remedy" the ugliness of the loop that I showed above with the loop in diagram below, that actually I made by mistake:I thought I remember how to tie the second loop you show at reply #36 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg27043#msg27043 , but I found in my hands this other loop: I do not know if it's worth from the practical side, but at least it seems nice to look at!

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Luca

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2013, 11:36:05 PM »
Hi X1,

I want to thank you for the patience you have for decide that my stuff is worth a comment,thus giving me an opportunity to think more about what I do.
As far for the loop, I have to say that in fact it is difficult to set it in what I consider the most appropriate manner (the initial Constrictor-shape should curves on itself, tending to align itself to the axis of loading, softening in this way  those that appear "elbows" in the two legs of the collar in the diagram), but I'm beginning to think that,also in this case,in facts, the knot does not have a behavior much more than mediocre( the Twisted 8 Bowline maybe is the loop I wanted to do!).
I would also note that I realized that the structure of this loop can be considered a variation on the theme of Abok # 1073!

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X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2013, 02:14:07 AM »
it seems nice to look at !

  I can only guess that your diagram is unclear or mistaken, and does not correspond to your knot - because I do not see how, under loading, this already open nipping loop would remain closed  :) This eyeknot looks like a falsely tied "Eskimo" Janus bowline ! Could you, please, post another diagram ?

... the initial Constrictor-shape should curve on itself, tending to align itself to the axis of loading

  That is the problem with all those elongated nipping structures... In order to stabilize them, so they can remain perpendicular to the axis of loading, we need  very complex collar structures - but then, what is the purpose of such a complex nipping structure ( that can not be self-stabilized, without the help of a collar structure ) in the first place ?

  I realized that the structure of this loop can be considered a variation on the theme of Abok # 1073 !

  I suspect that I have lost the ability to tell what is a "variation" of a knot, and what is a different knot... All knots start to look very "different" to my eyes - I am stuck to a little difference here and a little difference there - while, at the same time, I tend to believe that all knots are nothing but variations on very few knotting themes / elements !  :)

Luca

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2013, 07:31:46 PM »
I can only guess that your diagram is unclear or mistaken, and does not correspond to your knot - because I do not see how, under loading, this already open nipping loop would remain closed  :) This eyeknot looks like a falsely tied "Eskimo" Janus bowline ! Could you, please, post another diagram ?

Ready with the reserve-diagram!(Below)
However, I think it's useless, it's the same thing:by how you describe the loop, seems that you  have it tied rightly: no real nipping turn here, and also it is not an "Eskimo", is.. a mistake-loop!
Regarding the normal loading seems to me that behaves decently (and I could say that I do not understand the reason!); regarding the ring loading the knot tends to distort, and the portion of the rope adjacent to the tail tends to be "swallowed "by the portion of the false nipping loop  around the second leg of the eye.But, anyway,as says Alan Lee,this loop was only for visual pleasure!If you do not like, well, then "de gustibus ...",... or maybe I'm a blind mother (in Naples it also says something that sounds "Every cockroach is beautiful to his mom")!

but then, what is the purpose of such a complex nipping structure ( that can not be self-stabilized, without the help of a collar structure ) in the first place ?

Mine was a bit clumsy attempt to curve the legs of the collar,the left blue turn in the diagram above(which does not much justice even to the mediocrity of the knot)serves mostly to "bend", rather than nip;In short, I wanted to keep things simple: 1 real (approximately) nipping turn +1 collar + "bending".(I tried!)

  I suspect that I have lost the ability to tell what is a "variation" of a knot, and what is a different knot...

No,is that I am a block-head!
OK, then maybe we can say that is topologically identical to a "cowboy version" of ABOK #1073 with crossed loops! ;D

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X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2013, 08:51:00 PM »
   OK, I see its idea : A twisted Pretzel collar structure, weaved around a, hmmm, would-like-to-be single nipping loop, which, for unknown / mysterious reasons, does not wish to cross its legs, and decides to be and to remain "open", right from the beginning ( no crossing point...). Brave, bravo ! Now, forget this beloved cockroach, because it will not withstand a heavy loading - its "nipping loop" will burst open, and this weakly secured tail will not save its arch. Reverse the way the eye leg enters into the nipping loop, drive it around the crossing point, and tie the knot shown at the attached picture. The same three-foil symmetry, so a nice knot/cockroach, and a very secure, too. I am not an expert knot tyer, but I do know some things about knot s cosmetic surgery !  :)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:32:06 PM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2013, 05:58:14 AM »
Hi All, Again  just to share another loop that I like, very complicate to tie, well secure, 3 ropes diameter on both nipping loop.

Thanks  alan lee.

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2013, 04:05:42 PM »
very complicate to tie

   Indeed !  :)  One of the most unconventional knots you have presented. You have to wait till the last tuck, to see how on earth this tangle is going to become a closed knot... :)  and, even then, you have to dress it carefully, otherwise it does not settle in a tight, compact form.
   I do not see anything that would justify this odd complexity, that is not already achieved by the normal "Eskimo" Janus bowlines (1)(2)- where the path of the working end makes sense, so it is very easy to remember.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4329
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg27149#msg27149

Luca

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2013, 01:31:20 AM »
Hi X1,

a nice knot/cockroach, and a very secure, too

Oh ... no! Another unlucky knot that does not deserve to bear the disgrace of my name!
But... however,there is something wrong : that is a regular Eskimo/falsely tied cockroach loop!Take a look below to appreciate the shivering sight of a true,bulky,absurd, genetically modified by atomic radiation,cockroach loop, which I would never wish anyone to find itself to deal with it(the portions of the line in green can be inverted with respect to pass over/under:if one chooses the other alternative rather as shown in the diagram, one gets a loop perhaps less horrid-looking,and easier to untie (maybe too much, if it remains stuck somewhere ..)).

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X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2013, 02:06:11 AM »
that is a regular Eskimo/falsely tied ... bulky, absurd, genetically modified by atomic radiation, cockroach loop

   No, the loop shown at Reply#55 (1) is a a variation of the more robust "Eskimo" Janus bowline(s), where the nipping loop encircles three rope diameters - so the radius / curvature of the nipping loop s "circle" is larger, and the standing part s first curve is smoother. Regarding this characteristic, your beloved cockroach looks like the loops shown at Reply#8 (2). I do not say they can not crawl, I say that their legs can not be squeezed so much - the "bridge" / belly lies outside the nipping loop. For a discussion about similar knots, visit (3).

 1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg27149#msg27149
 2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg24818#msg24818
 3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4329.msg27171#msg27171
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 02:08:35 AM by X1 »