Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 61494 times)

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2013, 12:05:51 AM »
Hi X1,  Thanks for the comment, just wonder around don't know where to go, Anyway I got you. Here are two real Bowline, Hope you like it.  Thankss   alan lee.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 12:07:35 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2013, 12:46:53 AM »
wander around, don't know where to go..

   You have found where !  :) Tie double nipping loop / double collar bowline-like ( post-eye-tiable ) eyeknots (loops) - just as you did at your previous post !
   I believe that a really secure bowline should have two nipping loops and two collars. It sounds like a simple rule of thumb, but I think it is a reasonable requirement and a safe receipt as well - if we need a knot that can stand on the same level of security with the retraced fig.8 knot.
   There are many double "nipping structures", and many double "collar structures", but the problem is how to match the one to the other, so that they would prevent, and they would not disfigure, neither their own nor their pair s integrity and form. Another problem is that the two nipping loops should remain close to each other, in a compact entanglement with the collar structure, even under heavy loading - a task not always so easy as it sounds ! 
    I have tied a double collar Girth hitched bowline (1), which turned out to be very similar to your own most secure and beautiful Eskimo" 8 bowline (2). I believe that this subject of "Double-Double" eyeknots is very interesting, and you will tie many nice knots. Good luck !  :)

   1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4009.msg26872#msg26872
   2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg24806#msg24806   

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2013, 08:13:48 AM »
Hi All, 
1 photo-Just another thought,The two water bowline like loops above, I take the cowboy bowline retuck the tail to the right side, she look nicer more compact and both nipping loop squeeze the tail  more harder.

2 photo- Base by my  Lee s Eskimo 8 bowline idea, I came up with this one, I don't know what I shell call it, I think this one is better it have 3 ropes diameter on the nipping loop, more compact and after loading with heavy load,it can untie little easy than  Lee s Eskimo 8 bowline , only thing is little complicate to tie the loop.

3 photo- Same idea, she is complicate to tie and after heavy load on it, she hard to untie, when the tail is out, there is an over hand knot have to undo. This is not a good loop, but she is so beautiful I enjoy looking at it.

Thanks  alan lee.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 08:41:16 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2013, 12:33:27 PM »
   As you have seen, to be able to form the second collar in this double collar Water Bowline shown in your first picture, you had to pass the returning eye leg through one only of the two nipping loops ( the "upper" one). That does not affect its security, that is true, because the eye leg can never be secured while it is going straight upwards - but it does not improve the "look" of the knot either !  :) I would nt prefer that particular eyeknot from the Mirrored Bowline, or the Double Collar Bowline shown at (1).
   At your second and third pictures, you present bowline-like (post-eye-tiable) eyeknots that are based on the slipped overhand knot, as their nipping structure. Very clever and original idea - a well known, much used, easy to tie nipping structure, that has tight spots within it, and can serve as a most stable "double crossing knot" s nub.
   However, you go one step further, and you twist the slipped bight . I do not believe that this is really needed : it makes the nipping structure too complex, more difficult to tie, without offering much. You have an already very convoluted, very tight nipping structure, I am sure you can find many ways to weave the collar structure within it, without having to add this additional / final twist.
   See the attached picture for the first simple knot that crossed my mind, based upon this slipped overhand knot nipping structure you have thought of. The first round turn of the collar structure ( actually, a nipping loop ON the collar structure ), binds the lower parts of this complex "double crossing knot" together - and the tail passes in between the standing part s and the returning leg s first curves, where it can be squeezed and secured very efficiently. I am sure one can discover many more ways to do achieve the same thing : retain the integrity of the form of this "double crossing knot", and secure the tail into one of the more tightly squeezed points of it.
   Now, in both of your shown knots, the paths of the returning eye legs to the collar tips remains almost straight - that is not the best thing we can have  ! It would be much better if this path of the continuation of the eye leg inside the knot s nub contains an L-shaped segment, a "step" that would help it to be "hanged" by the nipping structure, and a means to dissipate the flow of the tensile forces, before it arrives at the collar and at the tail - just as it happens at the "Eskimo" (-) bowlines. In short, your nipping structure is very complex, but your collar structure is almost naive compared to it - something that I do not hesitate to mention repeatedly over and over again when I see it, but without much success  :) ( as one can see in the case of the dialogue about the Tresse bowline, published in another thread ).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4306.msg26951#msg26951
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 12:52:35 PM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2013, 04:16:59 AM »
HI X1, Thanks for the comments, I have another loop here I like, see what you think.

Thanks   alan lee.

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2013, 06:23:11 AM »
  A beautiful "Link bowline" - especially if you compare its beauty to the one shown at (1).  :)
 My concern is that, under heavy loading, this wrap around the rim of the nipping loop will be unwound, and the tension forces coming from the returning eye leg would be transferred to the collar without been diminished - but, even in that case, the round turn would justify its existence, by the enhanced security it offers regarding the slippage of the tail.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4314.msg26928#msg26928

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2013, 07:15:52 AM »
Hi, X1, Thaqnks again. I got two more loops here, hope you like it.

Thanks alan lee

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2013, 06:40:49 PM »
  The first loop has a very weak collar, where the second leg enters into the nipping loop from the wrong side - so it does not contribute to the stability of the nipping loop as much as it does in a "proper" collar. Under heavy loading, this nipping loop will run the danger to open up... A similar ( with a second nipping loop tied on the eye leg ), but much safer solution, is shown at (1).
   The second loop is a fine eyeknot - well balanced, with its tail very well nipped into the core of a compact and tight knot. To my eyes, it is very similar to the Lee Zep X bowline, but the path of the working end ( while it forms the collar structure within and around the nipping loop ) is more complicated, and more difficult to remember.  :)  Moreover, in that eyeknot the nipping loop encircles two rope diameters, and not three, like it does in the Lee Zep X bowline. It would be useful to show front and back side views of both loops in the same picture, the one next to the other, so the interested reader would see the similarities and the differences between them.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1929
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:20:09 PM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2013, 01:28:28 AM »
 Hi All,    Thanks for the reply X1,  I have another loop here, I think is not that complicate or too much efford to tie, and we have a  double nipping loop / double collar bowline-like loop. 

Thanks,  alan lee.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 01:29:36 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2013, 02:26:42 AM »
we have a double nipping loop / double collar bowline-like loop. 

  No, we do not !  :) The "double nipping loop" means a double nipping loop tied on the standing part before/ante the eye - and I see only a single nipping loop tied on the standing part here... The secondary nipping loop tied around the rim of the main nipping loop, is part of the collar structure, not of the nipping structure. It plays the role of a second collar, before the main collar, not of a second nipping loop.
  This knot is not very different than the knot shown at Reply#34 (1). In fact, the secondary nipping loop of the knot shown at (1) constricts the tails harder than the crossing-knot-like one shown in this post. Of course, this convoluted crossing-knot-like structure hanging from the rim of the nipping loop absorbs the greater portion of the tensile force before they even arrive at the main collar, so there is not much left that need to be secured further at the very end of the tail.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg27039#msg27039
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 12:42:31 PM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2013, 03:05:58 AM »
Hi X1,  Thanks you very much the valuable comment, I learn little bit more from your reply. anyway is fun to create.

Thanks   alan lee
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:07:09 AM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2013, 12:25:54 AM »
Hi All,  I love tying knot, good way to pass time. I don't know much on the theory side, all I know is to tuck it here and there, make the rope sail nicely, and smooth, as X1 said a good looking knot , there is some chance become a good knot. X1 you are right most of the time,after your comment on my knots,and I had little more test and thought myself, I found the problem as you said (even though I am not 100% follow what you said, due to my poor english) Please correct me if the knot that I have present don't make sense to you. Anyway I am glad and I am gaining everyday from all the reply.

I love dealing with bowline, because Bowline is the best. after many attempt , I have a loop here littler similar to one of my loop  Lee+Zep+X+bowline+(V). and hope you like it.

Thanks   alan lee
 

« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 12:37:09 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2013, 02:28:57 AM »
  I don't know much on the theory side

  You are not losing much - because there is nt much to lose !  :)

I do not follow 100% of what you said, due to my poor English

  Knots do not speak English - and it seems that many knot tyers that do, can only talk about them !  :) Keep tying nice knots, as this.
 
   Of course !  ::) How fool and blind I was... One can encircle the "higher" part of the nipping loop s rim - not the "lower" one, as I have done in this ugly Link bowline presented at (1) ! This way the secondary nipping loop is tied closer to the crossing point of the main nipping loop and the main collar, and so the knot s nub becomes compact - and good-looking !  Your solution is 1000% better than the poor one shown at (1). 
   Your pictures are not showing its true loaded / "final" form - the tail does not point towards the tip of the bight, like it does in the much inferior knot shown at (1). See the attached pictures, where I have tied your knot on a slippery rope, I have pulled the tail with 10 kg, and I have loaded the loop with 150 kg - to get a more accurate idea of its "final" form. The standing part s first curve drags the tail upwards - so, in the loaded, tight knot, the tail settles in the position shown below, and not in the position shown in your first picture / second and third knots.
  Both bowlines, the one shown here (B) and the previous one shown at Reply#34 (A) are, to my view, beautiful knots - I can not decide which is better / more secure...
  ( At the Lee Zep X bowline I prefer ( which I show in my previous post - the X=crossed tails version of the Lee Zep bowline shown at the third attached picture  ) the turn around the rim of the nipping loop encircles its crossing point as well. The Lee Zep X you show ( the X=crossed tails version of the Lee Zep bowline shown at the fourth picture)  is a simpler knot - a minor advantage of it is that it looks more like a Zeppelin-bend-looking eyeknot, so its pattern may be easier to remember (?) )   

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4314.msg26928#msg26928
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg27039#msg27039
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 05:22:16 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2013, 08:13:13 PM »
   I have tried the X=crossed tails variations of the Lee Zep (H) and the Lee Zep (V), with loose collars - as I use to do with all bowlines : I have not been able to notice any substantial differences... One has to untuck the collars altogether, to see that the Lee Zep (H) still holds ( as a Myrtle loop ), while the Lee Zep (V) does not. Is this a reason to chose the former rather than the later ? I believe it is - because the X=crossed tails variation of the Lee Zep (H) is, in a sense, "safer" : even if the collar is caught up somewhere, and the tail is pulled out of the knot s nub, the remaining portion of the eyeknot would still hold, at least for some valuable brief moments.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 03:02:42 AM »
Hi All, I have another loop here, is a cowboy bowline, take the tail around the right leg and tuck it in the middle of the nub, it seem fine to me. after loading with heavy object and it can untie easy too.

Thanks  alan lee