Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 61348 times)

alanleeknots

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Look alike loops
« on: November 12, 2012, 05:45:54 AM »
Hi All,  I have some good looking loops here, not practical loops, too difficult to tie, but no bad to untie. even thought they are so complex, but the tucking sit in place nicely. they all quite secure, except picture # 06, cannot get the tial nip tight, I wonder with all the twist and turn on the tail, will it be enough to hold the tail from slipping ?

Thanks  alan lee.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 05:47:55 AM »
  More loops here.

kd8eeh

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 06:16:06 AM »
by taking the end of your sixth in an effort to secure it, i made this.  it seems to be fairly strong, particularly for loops that are spread wide around something.  the it seems secure, and looks nice, at least in front.  all of your knots seem to be just different ways to present almost the same structure.  i will look for some similar things and keep you posted.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 10:32:46 AM »
Hi All, Double check the loops again, seem like loops #005 not quite nipped 100% on the tail, may be better of to turn the structure around,    Thanks   alan lee.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 10:36:19 AM by eric22 »

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 01:22:11 PM »
   
I have some good looking loops here, not practical loops, too difficult to tie

   A good-looking loop, would, most probably, be proven to be a practical loop, too...
   Why am I saying this ? Because a good - looking loop would be a simple enough loop, so we it can be easily remembered and tied. We do will never characterize as "good-looking" an amorphous mass of tangled ropes !  :)
A good-looking loop would retain a certain fluidity of lines, so the rope path would not make tight, abrupt U-turns. The eye likes to follow a smooth curvilinear path, without any ugly acute angles or protuberances. The eye knows much the brain does not realize at once...
   The first loop presented here is definitely good-looking. It is a two-collar "Eskimo"-like bowline, which means that it is a secure loop. I believe that, when we are talking about a "secure" bowline, that can be used for rescue purposes, for example, we should always mean a two-collar bowline. I have not seen a bowline on which a life can depend on, that has only one collar. It may be a matter of psychology only, true, but psychology plays a major role in such circumstances - in relation to the rescue personnel as well as to the victims. In boating and other not-so-critical uses, where the material is not-so-slippery, the use of a two-collar bowline may indicate ignorance about the marvellous effectiveness of the nipping loop+collar mechanism of the common bowline, and the insecurity and fear that stems out of such an ignorance...
   What I would like to see in a secure bowline is a nipping loop encircling three rope diameters. Not because the segments of the rope are better nipped there - they might well be nipped less tightly - but because the nipping loop itself takes a rounder and wider form, which means that it is more evenly tensioned, and stronger.
   The second loop is similar to the first, and one may even say that it is more secure, because the tail is squeezed by the eye-leg-of-the-bight in two distinct points ( at the first loop, it is adjacent and runs along a long segment of it ). However, I think that, at the first loop, the eye-leg-of-the-bight of the bight follows a smoother, easier path as it enters into the bight - that is why I would prefer the first from the second loop.
   I do not like the other loops, for a simle reason : I do not like the abrupt turn of the rope at the 1-rope diameter collar around the eye-leg-of-the-standing-part. It is not good-looking !  :) I have many ropes that will not turn around a 1-rope diameter curve, if they are not tensioned very hard. At this point of the knots, this second collar will remain loose, unless the knot is tied on a very soft material. Who likes voids in his knots ? ( Nature does not !)
   The last loop belongs to a slightly different breed. I do not see the point of the second turn around the rim of the nipping loop - without it, the loop would belong to the family of the Janus (two-collar) bowlines, which are already very secure, without this additional complexity.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 01:29:44 PM by X1 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 12:45:23 AM »
Hi Xarax, Thanks you very much for your valuable comments, I added an additonal full turn on the middle of "8" sturcture of the loop,she turn out very nice too, have 3 ropes diamete on the nipping loop.

Thanks  alan lee.

kd8eeh

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 03:12:09 AM »
i would dissagree.  even basic loops like a bowline feature a collar around a single strand.  often, this is not a detriment to a knot, but rather makes it exceptionally easy to untie, and usually without too much stress on rope.  i can see how an abrupt pinch in the rope may be bad, but most ropes do have the capacity to bend around themselves, and moreover, if they don't, then the knot is still just as secure in most cases, even if there may be a slight loss of strength in the rope.  also, i was looking at these knots, and found what seems to be a simpler loop, that is quite secure and very easy to untie.  does anyone recognize it?

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 05:07:23 AM »
an additional full turn on the middle of the "8" structure of the loop

  The path of the rope in the collar structure became too long and convoluted now - too complex. Moreover, the rope is following a path without any simple and easily memorisable pattern - like the "mirror bowline" , for example. Tied on your soft material the knot may look compact and neat, indeed, but my stiff ropes do not follow this path very easily. It is difficult to dress, because even a strong pull of the two ends of the collar structure is often not sufficient to eliminate all the slack left in the long, convoluted middle section of it - so a proper dressing that will lead to a compact knot needs attention, and time.
  The problem is that the working end does not pass through the nipping loop for the second time when it has the chance, while it goes upwards to form the second collar - so it has to complete the desired three passages by this additional round turn. At the Janus bowlines, the three passages are achieved without additional waste of material, because the working end pass through the nipping loop every time it has the chance, at its route from the one collar to the other.
   I have tried to tie a decent two-collars "Eskimo" Janus bowline, but I have not found anything good-looking... It seems that, for some reason I can not pin point, if the first collar of a two-collar secure bowline is a standard bowline s collar, and not an "Eskimo" collar, the paths of the rope inside the knot s nub are shorter, and their curves are smoother.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2012, 05:22:48 AM »
Hi All,  Just to add two more here. I think they are not bad.

Thanks  alan lee

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2012, 06:02:38 AM »
   Yes, these are simple "Eskimo" Janus bowlines. As you would have seen by now, it is not easy to have three rope diameters through the nipping loop, without distorting the good-looking aspect of those knots.     
   As it happens with the standard Janus bowlines, there are many similar versions of those knots. See the attached picture for two other variants, where the two collars are interlinked, and the final segment of the tail is nipped by the first curve of the standing part. The last two pictures show a 3-rope-diameter-through-the-nipping-loop "Eskimo" Janus bowline. Not very good-looking, but because it uses a "not-proper", "Myrtle" configuration for its second collar, it remains very compact.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 02:21:18 PM by X1 »

kd8eeh

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2012, 10:44:07 PM »
i tried to respond earlier, but the computer didn't let it through.  as far as knots with a collar around just one strand, i find that this generally is just a mark that it tends to be easy to untie.  even a simple bowline has this type of collar, and i do not think it puts undue stress on the rope, or at least the benefit of untying it outweighs the slight cost to strength. 

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2012, 11:33:50 PM »
....as far as knots with a collar around just one strand
....this generally is just a mark that [the knot] tends to be easy to untie

   There is no relation between those two things (unfortunately...Otherwise we would have discovered the anti-jamming cure ! :)
   Some knots where the collar turns around a single strand are easy to untie, and some are not. The bowline can be untied because of the nipping loop, which can not jam, not because of the collar.

Luca

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 12:11:14 AM »
Hi kd8eeh,

found what seems to be a simpler loop, that is quite secure and very easy to untie.  does anyone recognize it?

The loop that you show, is a bit similar to the result that is obtained by setting the Carrick loop (Abok # 1033) in the wrong way, so that the nipping loop becomes a false collar; a description of how this must not take place, you can read here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3902.msg23140#msg23140
 
Both the Carrick loop wrong-setted,and the the loop that you show, have the drawback that if one pulls the leg of the loop adjacent to the tail, the loop is at serious risk of spill.
A pair of better loops related:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3944.msg23427#msg23427


                                                                                                Bye!

kd8eeh

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 12:15:00 AM »
however, when you untie the bowline, you use slack between the collar and the rest of the knot.  in many anti-jamming knots, the slack comes from the space where the loaded end being attached to some collar, which will not tighten when the end is loaded.  that gives you slack in a point you wouldn't have otherwise had.  there may be more to it than that in complicated knots, but as far as simpler knots go, that collar is a key to successfully untying it.  consider a bowline, sheet bend, zeplin knot, alpine butterfly, and a carrick bend, to name a few.

X1

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 11:55:44 AM »
  The fact that we often make a collar loose, or use a loosened collar, and then use this loosened  or loose collar to pull out of or push into the knot s nub some rope length, and release the grip the collar could have on the rest of the knot, has no relation with the mechanism that makes one knot to jam, and one other to be untied easily.
  What exactly makes knot to jam or not ( or to jam earlier or later... ), is unknown to me, and I do not know id it is known to anybody - but I know that it has no relation with a collar that turns around one or more than one rope diameters, or with how tight this collar encircles another segment or area of the knot.
  For a bend that was designed so that it can be untied by a manipulation of its collars, see (1).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3670.0