Author Topic: Look alike loops  (Read 72824 times)

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #135 on: January 11, 2014, 08:43:38 AM »

Hi All, 

       Thanks Xarax and Dan for the reply.
       Dan I read you description, I have this photo here, did l tie it right as you have said?
       I found quite easy to dress it tight by hand.
       
       謝謝   alan lee.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2014, 09:47:49 AM »
Hi All,
Only recently I have Blue water ropes, I have a piece of 7/16"Kernmantle rope,is quiet a stiff rope. I tie all the overhand locked bowline(since Reply #102) and loaded 330 lbs, some of the tail of the loops are not that tight, I can push the tail out easy. that mean no good for this Kernmantle rope.(I didn't try the reverse version yet.)
Well this time I modify the Lee s simple locked bowline and Lee s overhand locked bowline, give them an additional truck.
again l use the Kerrmantle rope, tie and dressing it as good as l can, while the loop is in tight form, l push the collar inward and pull on the tail eye leg little more. This way when l am loading the loop, it will pick up some more slack of the overhand knot, and make the loop in more tighter form.
Here is the photos result of the loops, good looking, are quiet compact, very well secure, 4 ropes diameter on the nipping loop and sitting on kind of 45 degree angle, the nipping loop don't look that fat the way it set up. They all are easy to untie, I don't know you call it hard to tie or not, you may need more effort to dress it.

謝謝   alan lee.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 03:08:32 PM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #137 on: January 17, 2014, 09:53:25 AM »
  Second set of loop. this one is three ropes diameter on the nipping loop.

     謝謝   alan lee.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 10:10:01 AM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2014, 09:56:27 AM »
Third set of loop.

    謝謝   alan lee.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 10:10:25 AM by eric22 »

xarax

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #139 on: January 17, 2014, 09:59:12 AM »
   Alan, I think that static 330 lb is a relatively light load for a 1/2" stiff kernmantle rope...
   The most important thing we would like to know is the easiness of untying of each one.
   Could you, please, tie the first Lee s locked bowline ( shown at the attached pictures ) and show it to us to see how it is deformed under heavy loading ?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 10:11:23 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #140 on: January 17, 2014, 10:19:47 AM »
Hi Xarax, 
             The Kernmantle rope is 7/16", How heavy you want me to load it. I can find some weight to do it.

              You have a great day.

xarax

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #141 on: January 17, 2014, 10:28:13 AM »
  12. 5 mm or 1/2" is not very different from 7 / 16". I see that they have a tensile strength of about 7.200 lb. If the knotted rope can withstand half, give or take, of this load, I guess that, as a rule of thumb, "heavy loading" would mean something like half of that half, = 1800 lb ( about the same as the recommended / safe working load ). Now, 300 lb is the 1 / 6 , only, of this...
  A friend of mine tells me that the recommended / safe working load is a certain percentage of the breaking load, that varies from 1 : 5 to 1 : 10 ( for climbers ), even to 1 : 15 ( for firemen, rescue workers ). I do not know if by "heavy loading", and its impact on the ropes and the knots tied on them, we should take into account the recommended / safe working load of the unknotted or of the knotted rope, and the safety factor of 1 : 5, of 1 : 10, or no safety factor at all - we want to know how our knot will behave, even in the case of an exceptional, although not yet catastrophic event, don't we ?
 
   P.S. I have searched for some working load / breaking load recommendations, but I have not been able to find something as concrete as I would had wished... Read, for for example :
   Working Loads:
   No blanket safe working load (SWL) recommendations can be made for any line because SWL's must be calculated based on application, conditions of use, and potential danger to personnel among other considerations. It is recommended that the end user establish working loads and safety factors based on best practices established by the end user's industry; by professional judgment and personal experience; and after thorough assessment of all risks. The SWL is a guideline for the use of a rope in good condition for non-critical applications and should be reduced where life, limb, or valuable property is involved, or in cases of exceptional service such as shock loading, sustained loading, severe vibration, etc. The Cordage Institute specifies that the SWL of a rope shall be determined by dividing the Minimum Tensile Strength of the rope by a safety factor. The safety factor ranges from 5 to 12 for non-critical uses and is typically set at 15 for life lines
.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 10:12:03 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #142 on: January 20, 2014, 08:00:12 AM »
   Hi All,

        As it was suggested by Xarax, I am submitting this photos result of heavy loading Lee s locked bowline.
        Photos #1 to #6, these loops loaded with 1400 lbs.
        Photos #7& #8 loaded with approximately 1800 lbs.
        It seem like holding very well.

        謝謝   alan lee.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:26:01 PM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #143 on: January 20, 2014, 08:18:49 AM »
     More photos here.

    謝謝   alan

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #144 on: January 20, 2014, 08:21:24 AM »
    More photos here.

    謝謝   alan

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #145 on: January 20, 2014, 08:23:01 AM »
     More photos here.

     謝謝   alan lee.

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #146 on: January 24, 2014, 07:54:16 AM »
   Hi All,
           SS369 you are right, as you said I should turn some of my loops into bend, seem like this Lee s locked bowline can turn
           into very nice secure bend.

           謝謝   alan lee.

xarax

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #147 on: January 24, 2014, 12:32:11 PM »
  Any symmetric bend, where the links are topologically equivalent to the unknot ( the "A" bends" of Miles s "Symmetric Bends" book ), can be turned into a PET loop, almost by definition... So, if you take a PET loop and turn it back into a bend, either you have completed a round turn ( that is, a perfect 0 ... :)), or you have tied a non-symmetric bend - which, most of the time, is not an interesting knot... There are some rare cases where we have tried to do the opposite, i.e., to turn interesting non-symmetric bents into loops - as, for example, in the case of the simple non-symmetric bends presented by Hoban (1) - no luck (2) !  :) The original simplicity of the parent bend is lost, and the loading of another, third, limb of the initial end-to-end knot can deform it to the point it becomes unrecognizable.
  Now, regarding your attempt, as a result / consequence which, perhaps, should have been expected, the nice flow of the strands into the parent loop s nub leads to a nice non-symmetric bend, looking like an enhanced Sheet bend. However, as a potentially practical knot, does it offer anything more than a symmetric bend ? I doubt it. In a sense, the simpler link begs to be completed, and acquire the same amount of complexity - and the same degree of participation in the workings of the knot - as the other one. And if you re-tuck the end of this end, you end to some known symmetric bend  :) - or you "tie" some ugly tangy, a desperate act which you would nt even think to do, of course.
   Balance of the amount of complexity of the path each rope follows into space, as it turns around the other and itself, is not just a demand of aesthetics - it is a requirement of the mechanics of a tool, so the forces that run within its parts are evenly distributed along greater areas. Look at a humble nut-and-bolt simple machine : the male and the female parts are equally complex, you can not say the one is more "worked", more sculptured into the metal, than the other. Look at the common bowline : the nipping loop and the collar, although they play different roles, are equally simple. Look at Buster Keaton  :) !  Although the form and the material of his body are sooo different from the form and the material of the current of air, those two things are in a perfect balance - a situation which, of course is such a rare thing in life, so it makes us admire it, or laugh with it.
   I am not convinced by any non-symmetric bend - and I am not even convinced by any too-clever-by-half knot  :), where we add 1 and 1 to make 1, = we interlace two hitches to make one bend... There should be a sound reason for the addition and the duplication, in place of a new creation. On the same footing, there should be a sound reason for the subtraction of a symmetric bend s portion / part, and the resulting unbalanced knot, in place of a simpler, right from the start, symmetric bend. However, as Ashley says, "There are always people who believe that if a single thing is good, two are bound to be better." Well, I can only say that I am not among those... :)   

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4116
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4116.msg27762#msg27762
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 12:41:29 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #148 on: January 24, 2014, 02:33:42 PM »
   Hi All,
           SS369 you are right, as you said I should turn some of my loops into bend, seem like this Lee s locked bowline can turn
           into very nice secure bend.

           謝謝   alan lee.

Hi Alan.

I'm glad you've decided to explore some more. ;-)

If you test any of these with heavy loadings (slow and quick), Checking security when slack, etc., and find them getting a passing grade, please share what you find.

But, let's start a new thread for them. You can always refer to the corresponding loop from this thread if you want.

Have fun.

SS

alanleeknots

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Re: Look alike loops
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2014, 07:59:20 AM »
Hi All,
       Thanks for the comments Xarax and SS, I love to do the serious test on few of my loops, but now just too busy.
       when ever I am ready, I will start a new thread, and get some opinion and advice from guys how to do the complete test.
       Hope I can make it happen in the near future,
       謝謝 alan lee   
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 08:00:34 AM by eric22 »