Author Topic: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday  (Read 12139 times)

djh860

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Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« on: November 04, 2012, 12:54:21 AM »
**** I posted better pictures with two color ropes below***
Can you tell me who invented it first and what it's name is or anything about it?
First you create 2 similar bends in two ropes.


Next push the right bend through the middle of the left bend .


Now grab the tail end of the left line and wrap it under around up and through the right bend.


Grab the tail of the right bend and poke it through right to left through the right bend.

Tighten the knot.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 02:45:40 PM by djh860 »

kd8eeh

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 03:05:23 AM »
Firstly, in the knotting world, these "bends" are called bites. This is to avoid confusion with bends, which are knots used to tie two ropes together. Secondly, this knot you made is a sheet bend, but with a finishing tuck on one rope andthe other loaded by what is typically the tail. I have never seen it tied before, but that's not to say it is new.if you have a copy of Ashely book of knots, try looking in the bends chapter to see if you can find it. If you don't have it, get a copy.it's a great book. I'll look it up when i get home. Anyway, your bend appears to be moderately strong and fairly secure, although it has the flaw that if not worked tight enough, one end will pull the two trails through, and then it pinches the rope in a manner that reduces it's strength. In both forms it is very bulky, and there are existing knots that serve the same purpose but are generally more versatile.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 06:47:04 AM »
A. Firstly, in the knotting world, these "bends" are called bites.

B. This is to avoid confusion with bends, which are knots used to tie two ropes together.

C. Secondly, this knot you made is a sheet bend,
but with a finishing tuck on one rope and the other loaded by what is typically the tail.

Wrong on A & B, which I suggest you look up in ABOK.
Wrong on C until reaching the qualification, then right on.

So, this is what has been called a "Lapp knot" but with the
extension of making an extra tuck with the tail of the bight side.
.:.  Interesting!


--dl*
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kd8eeh

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2012, 03:11:38 AM »
ok.  i would have looked up in abok this knot, but i wasn't home at the time i replied, so i didn't have my copy.  seems how most of my knotting experience comes from fuddling around with shoelaces, not actualy talking to others, what would these be called?  i know knots used to tie two ropes together are called bends, so when i read two bends in the ends of ropes, i thought of two distinct knots, something like that bowline around the loop of another bowline thing, and i figured the term bend would be confusing.  what do i have wrong here then?

X1

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2012, 12:10:11 PM »
   I believe that this bend is similar / identical to one of those :

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4076.0

P.S. 2012-14-11
I was wrong, because I was talking about another knot, where the one link is an overhand knot - I could not distinguish the paths of the white rope at the series of the pictures. See :

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4116.msg24851#msg24851
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 04:36:21 PM by X1 »

djh860

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 02:10:43 PM »
I also tried that one but it felt like it would roll so I moved on to the one I posted.

   I believe that this bend is similar / identical to one of those :

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4076.0

X1

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 03:42:54 PM »
that one
Which one ? There are more than one presented and discussed there.

it felt like it would roll

Could you, please, be a little more specific ? What do you mean by "roll" ? Which part of which knot would roll, relatively to which other part ?

  It would be nice if you tie the knot with cords of two different colours, so the path of the line of each link within the knot is clearly visible. ( The shining white lines in your pictures are not very helpful in this, and they are out of focus . Also, at the pictures of tightened knot, one can not see which are the standing ends and which are the tails - the tails are too long , they end out of the frame ). You could also post the version which you think that would not be stable, so we can see the two knots side by side and compare them.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 03:57:38 PM by X1 »

djh860

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 02:17:36 PM »
Hi all,
I took new pictures.  I hope this helps.  All comments are welcome.  Thank you.
The short ends should be on the same side

Put the right hand bend through the left hand bend

Take the sharp end of the left side rope down under around the standing line of the left bend and then through the right side bend.

Take the sharp end of the right hand line and push it up and through the right hand bend

Tighten knot


back side


X1

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 04:29:18 PM »
   Hi, djh860, and thank you for the new pictures.

   Congratulations, djh860. This in a pretty, most interesting knot - and also it teaches us some valuable lessons about knots, in general.

   This bend is not an Easy bend (1), of course, because both links are topologically equivalent to the unknot ( i.e., none is an overhand knot ). You can transform the Easy Bend shown at (1) -and at the third attached picture - into the one you show here, by passing the working end of the black/right link over the standing end of the same link ( and not under, as you do at this bend ). However, I argue that it has no relation with an Easy bend whatsoever - as it often happens with simple things, even one little change does change everything.
   So, this bend is even simpler than an Easy bend - and, I dare to say without having tested it, at least as secure as an Easy bend. Why ? Because it utilises a locking mechanism we have seen it works perfectly in the case of the Zeppelin bend - that of the tails being loaded and secured in place, like pivots in a rope-made hinge, by perpendicularily acting forces ( sheer forces ). I would go as far as to argue that this bend is, in fact, a simplified Zeppelin bend, just one step more complex than the Symmetric Sheet bend ( or, just one step less simple than the SSB ). Moreover, it is very stable, even when it is not loaded, while the SSB is obviously not. So, it is much more "practical" than the SSB. Easy to tie, to dress, and very secure, what else would one have wished for a bend ?
   The only shortcoming I see is the lack of symmetry. I suppose that, probably, the one link would be much weaker than the other, just as it might happen with the Sheet bend. It lacks the symmetry of the Zeppelin bend and of the SS bend, but this does not mean it is not pretty. It is, because it is a most simple illustration of a rope-made hinge - and a hinge is a pretty thing. independently of the material it is made of !  :)
   
   ( You have replaced the white rope with a black one, where the self-crossings can be distinguished even less... at least by people with less acute vision than the one they used to have during the last century, like me. So, if I was/am talking about another knot than the one you show, you now know why ! :) But if you keep inventing such pretty knots, I guess you can use any colour you wish !
    An advice : when you wish to show the back side of a knot, it is better to rotate it around its axis, so the left link remains at the left side of the frame, and the right link remains at the right side. I believe that this way the human brain understands more easily and quickly that the apparently "two" things are, in fact, one and the same thing - because we are accustomed at paying attention to bilateral, "face" symmetry. I think that most people will understand a 90 degrees rotation around the horizontal axis, than around the vertical axis. )

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4076.0
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 04:41:52 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 05:46:23 PM »
   See the attached pictures, for the end-of-line bowline-like (PET) loop knot, based upon this asymmetric, yet pretty bend.

djh860

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 06:39:09 PM »
It certainly is not a lapp bend with and extra tuck nor is it a sheet bend.  Please tie it.

A. Firstly, in the knotting world, these "bends" are called bites.

B. This is to avoid confusion with bends, which are knots used to tie two ropes together.

C. Secondly, this knot you made is a sheet bend,
but with a finishing tuck on one rope and the other loaded by what is typically the tail.

Wrong on A & B, which I suggest you look up in ABOK.
Wrong on C until reaching the qualification, then right on.

So, this is what has been called a "Lapp knot" but with the
extension of making an extra tuck with the tail of the bight side.
.:.  Interesting!


--dl*
====

X1

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 10:38:05 PM »
   Another, slightly different variation of the same bend. The locking mechanism of the pair of tails is the same - and the general aspect does not differ much. I do not know which one is tied more easily than the other. There are many initial configurations one can use to set up and dress those bends, other than the one shown previously.

Luca

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 12:09:28 AM »
Hi djh860,

The (interesting) bend that you show us, is(in shape) an "anti-Lapp knot(/bend)" with an extra tuck:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1955.msg13654#msg13654

(for someone who does not know the knot, the description given by kd8eeh is not so bad).
The Lapp(Sami?)knot(knot,not bend!),I do not think it has been conceived as a bend in origin, but rather as something similar to a hitch (IMO), here an example of what appears to be a slipped Lapp knot used in a similar way as if it were a Becket Hitch (seems good!) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eJjE6uR9Q0&feature=channel&list (it can be interesting to watch the other videos in the channel by the same author).
the Easy bend is a "regular"Lapp knot(or bend etc.etc..)with a similar extra tuck:this extra tuck may be useful for preventing annoying (or tragic) mistakes when one decide to use the Lapp knot as a bend.

                                                                                                    Bye!

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 01:39:28 AM »
It certainly is not a lapp bend with and extra tuck nor is it a sheet bend.  Please tie it.

I did.  It is a wrong-side Lapp bend ... then --reddish rope
(of your later photos) crossing over around the black SPart
instead of its tail, as is the "right-side" Lapp bend (and
then the tuck of the bight's tail).

Cute little knot by whatever name.

--dl*
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X1

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Re: Hi I "invented" this knot yesterday
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 05:40:41 AM »
"anti-Lapp knot(/bend)" with an extra tuck:

a wrong-side Lapp bend
(and then the tuck of the bight's tail).

   There is a number of OTHER knots that can also be considered as Lapp or anti-Lapp or wrong-side Lapp knots, with an extra tuck ! This description means nothing. In such a scale, in such a simple knot, one extra tuck is too many.
   Moreover, this description is wrong ! Because it does not reveal - rather, it hides - the fact that the mechanism which locks the pair of tails in place is completely different in this knot, from any Lapp-ish knot...
   I understand  that most people, when confronted with something new, and unknown thing, tend to baptize it with the name of something similarily-looking old, and nown thing, however different that might be. It is an easy, sometimes convenient, but not always useful tendancy.
  However, if this happens to simple things, it is also dangerous... It might lead to great mis-understandings. Because any small change to a simple configuration is capable to create a totally new situation. In other terms, it is most probable that a new thing will emerge. People in knotting do the same mistake over and over again - and Ashley himself was not immune of this : he related the bowline with the Sheet bend, and people keep reproducing the same mistake 70 years now !
   This knot is much more related to the Zeppelin bend, and to the SSB, than to any Lapp knot, with or without a tuck. I hope that this Lapp mask/burga will not stick on its pretty face !  :)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 09:06:45 PM by X1 »