Author Topic: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)  (Read 32164 times)

X1

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2013, 12:52:07 AM »
   Noope !  :) On closer inspection ( because the "intermission" deleted the "recent files" from my brain disk...), I see that both forms are fig. 8 based Zeppelins, as you say - so they are but different dressings of each other, indeed. Starting from the "simple" last shown form, just push the tails towards the other link s standing end. You can do it in two ways, because each tail can go "over" or "under" the other - but the form shown in the first three pictures ( the "blue" tail goes "under" the "yellow" one ). is the more stable one. ( See at the second attached picture the other side of the loose knot - so, at this picture, the "blue" tail goes "over" the "yellow" one ).
   If the tails had been crossed, i.e. in the two X - forms of this knot, the pictures would have been much different.

   I am unsure that the added complexity (not much) adds any great attributes.

  It adds nothing, that is for sure !  :)  I have just tied it as an example of a genuine "Zeppelin-like" knot, like the Hugo bend -  and as a simpler alternative to the "Slipped overhand knots bend", shown in the first attached picture. I want to find out every true Zeppelin-like knot there is ( they are not so many...)- not the fake ones, like the so-called "Zeppelin loop".
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 02:12:53 AM by X1 »

Luca

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2013, 01:03:04 AM »
Hi,

A rope made hinge-bend that "resembles" the two bends above:Two overhand knots that intersect themselves only during the time to become (at least topologically) two Slipknots.

                                                                                                           Bye!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 01:09:50 AM by Luca »

xarax

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2013, 02:33:56 AM »
  A Zeppelin / Hugo - like bend, no question about that. However, in contrast to the other similar bends shown in this thread, this is an unstable knot - KnotGod knows why... In such simple "loose" knots, even the smallest detail can make a huge difference. It may become stable, if the tail of each slip knot link is driven through the collar of the other, as shown in the attached picture.
 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 02:37:17 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Luca

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2013, 11:54:33 PM »
Thank you for the photo of the retucked version!
Is certainly true that to this bend can be given a few different forms, but, although I have no tested seriously, it seems to me that has no particular stability problems if loaded normally,but I admit though, that if it is loaded for example by the tails, Indeed, the situation becomes different: perhaps you are referring to something like this?

                                                                                                                  Thanks and bye!

xarax

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2013, 05:51:32 AM »
  Perhaps I used the wrong word..."Unstable" may not convey well what I mean :
  Starting from a loose knot, if we pull the standing ends and the standing ends only ( and not the tails ), because the continuations of the tails do not "communicate" more directly with the standing ends ( due to the presence of those intermediate 270-degree sharp turns / collars ), they can remain slack. ( This means that this knot will not dress itself automatically, as the Zeppelin bend does : at some point during loading, we will have to pull the tails as well ). In each link, the slack within the continuation of the tail can only be consumed after the consumption of the slack within the collar. So, the pulling of the standing end does not result in an immediate, directly proportional tensioning of the continuation of the tail. As a result, the pressure from the main bights can force them to bulge, and be dragged into an oblique angle in relation to the the axis of the loading - away from the optimum right angle ( where the main forces they had to withstand, as parts of a genuine Zeppelin-like knot, were the sheer forces, not the friction forces.)
   On an oblique rail  / tail pair  :) , the side-by-side main bights will slide towards opposite directions, until the whole knot will settle in a new stable configuration, resembling the spread-out Cube bend ( M. B18) and the similar B binder :
   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4122.0 
   So, surprisingly, it seems that the insertion of those 270 degree collars in between the standing ends and the tails, instead of making the knot more stable ( as it usually happens when the lines follow more convoluted paths inside the knots ), it disturbs the initial balance of the original Zeppelin bend, and makes it less stable !

P.S. I have seen that the Zeppelin-like bend shown in Reply#46 behaves in exactly the same way, regarding its vulnerability to obliqueness during self-dressing... although it is supposed to be more stable, as the links there are the topologically more "complex" overhand knots, rather than the "simpler" slip knots, as in Lucas s Zeppelin-like bend here. However, the twisted, 270-degree collars are present in both knots, and, as I tried to explain above, I believe that this is the real cause of the problem : the continuations of the tails are too independent from the rest of the knot, they do not communicate with their bights very easily. On the contrary, in the slipped overhand knot Zeppelin-like bend, the continuations of the tails "communicate" directly with their corresponding bights through simple, U turn-like collars - so any slack left in them can be consumed by those bights in no time.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 12:03:16 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2014, 07:46:06 PM »
  [/ QUOTE ]
 ... The ZL is stronger and just as secure, if not more so, than most bowlines and it's just as easy to untie.

 [ QUOTE ]

   Ha, Ha, Ha, Haaa:), :), :), :) :) :)
   
   ( In the rhythm of Beethoven s notes, on Schiller s "Ode an die Freude" (Ode to Joy) - to use the German nomenclature, which is "a la mode" nowadays...  :))
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_to_Joy

  Yet another dressing of the same knot is shown in the attached pictures. The pair of tails now are twisted 180 degrees inside their castings, so many lines of the knot s nub are now parallel to each other.
  As a side-effect, the knot is not sooo ugly now, as the original one was claimed it was ( in comparison to an ugly/tangly Zeppelin TIB eyeknot )
 
The principal benefit of seeing these end-2-end knots is that by comparison they make the TIB zeppelin eye knot perfectly beautiful!!

  In the first sight, it may appear similar to the "Loose knot" (M. B15), but it is different, because it is neither "loose", nor B! ( By "B", Miles denotes the bends where the links are topologically equivalent to the overhand knot). ( A really "similar" Zeppelin-like bend, in form and in function, was presented by Luca and Valentine. See the third and fourth attached pictures ).
  It can serve as a basis for a bowline-like, PET eyeknot, similar to the one shown in Reply#5.
  It is a genuine Zeppelin knot, because it is a rope-made hinge : if we just pull and remove the pair of tails, which play the role of the pivot of this hinge, out of its casting, the knot falls apart instantly, because the first curves are not "hooked" to each other : they are only linked indirectly, through the tails, around which they can revolve almost freely.
   Should I compare the Hugo eyeknot to the fake, so-called "Zeppelin" loop, which is neither Zeppelin-like, nor PET ? I already did ! Right in the first lines, but I will repeat this detailed comparison, for the sake of the salesmen and consumers of the faux bijoux, the lamentable knots spread all over the web...
   https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=faux+bijoux&sa=X&hl=en&gl=uk&authuser=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=8CppU6e8OMao0QWo24HoAQ&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=612

 [/ QUOTE ]
 ... The ZL is stronger and just as secure, if not more so, than most bowlines and it's just as easy to untie.

 [ QUOTE ]

   Ha, Ha. Ha. Haaa:), :), :):) :) :)


« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 11:38:01 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2014, 06:01:50 AM »
   I post pictures of the loose and the compact fig.8 Zeppelin bend, in the mirror symmetric of the form the knot was presented earlier in this thread.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 12:47:07 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2014, 09:40:34 AM »
   A picture of the Hugo bend (B) presented at Reply#1, where the two "open" ( = topologically equivalent to the unknot ) links are shown more clearly. ( In the ascendant Zeppelin bend, the two links are "closed", because they are topologically equivalent to the overhand knot - although the first curves of them are also parallel, i.e. they are not "hooked" to each other ).

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.msg24519#msg24519

« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 10:36:50 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.