Author Topic: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)  (Read 33500 times)

X1

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2013, 12:56:25 PM »
 Just another example of a true Zeppelin-like knot, a rope-made hinge where the two main bights of the two links are not hooked the one to the other, but connected through their tail pair, which play the role of the pivot.
   A slightly different dressing of the same knot, is shown in the fourth picture. A great advantage of the Zeppelin bend, is that the "pivot" remains almost perpendicular to the axis of the loading - therefore it confronts shear forces mainly rather than oblique friction forces. When this beneficial orientation is compromised, and the pair of the tails is not at a right angle to the pair of the standing ends ( like it happens in the bend shown in this post), the "pivot" has to withstand stronger friction forces, and function as a "wedge" - just as it happens to most other bends.
  I publish it to show, just another time, what is the main characteristic of the genuine Zeppelin knot, the Zeppelin bend - and what the fake, so-called "Zeppelin loop" does not have... while the loops presented in (1) do . However, I have seen that it has recently became something of an easy ( and cheap !  :) ) fashion, for people that have not been able to understand what a Zeppelin-like knot is, to advocate this fake / so-called "Zeppelin loop" here and there in the Web, in poorly written "so-called articles" like this lamentable one :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_loop 
( Notice that, in this ONE SINGLE LINE "ARTICLE", there is only ONE SINGLE REFERENCE - a truly notable contribution to the case of the so-called "Zeppelin-loop", indeed !  :)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.0

« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 02:47:09 PM by X1 »

roo

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2013, 03:23:27 PM »
this fake / so-called "Zeppelin loop" here and there in the Web,
Regarding the Zeppelin Bend and Zeppelin Loop; identical knot bodies and practically identical properties = unrelated in your world?  Must be a lonely place.

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2013, 05:47:03 PM »
A loaded eye leg hanging from the tail of the ex-Zeppelin bend is such a ugly thing...
 
Having 50% of the main load on one tail doesn't make the knot jam and it slightly increases the security of the knot form.

It seems like a fair trade to me.
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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2013, 06:49:11 PM »
just as dozens of other bends, you seem not to be aware of...
These unnamed dozens usually have other defects, such as instability, insecurity, unjustifiable complexity, and so on.

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   it slightly increases the security of the knot form.
Really ?
Yes, really.

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So the Zeppelin bend is not secure enough ?
There's nothing wrong with improving security.

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Or you have not been able to find the dozens of dozens of other secure bends that can be turned into secure loops ?
See my first point.  When these unnamed "dozens" are actually named, they usually aren't very impressive.

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Do you consider as an "invention" of yours the simple fact that a loaded tail makes a bend, ANY BEND, even more secure ?
No.  What a weird response.  Some bends capsize when you pull on their tail.  Some jam.

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There are dozens of dozens of end-of-line loops,
The unnamed ghosts are multiplying!  I guess I should expect that they remain unnamed.  The last time you named your ultimate loop, it was an order of magnitude more complicated than the Zeppelin Loop, while being quite a bit less secure. 

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that are secure and do not jam
Says the poster who prefers not to test knots.

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, and dozens of them are even bowline-like, i.e. post-eye-tiable
When you're at the end of the rope (such as when tying an end loop), it is a trivial matter to tie an overhand knot.   Even for unusually large loops, an overhand knot tied near the end of a rope can be rolled quickly to another position if you know where to place your fingers.

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- and I have even shown some of them that are secure, do not jam, are post-eye-tiable, AND they are tiable in the bight
While this is a different topic, why aren't you using the Butterfly Loop as an on-the-bight loop (or some other standard) instead of one of your usual unvetted, complicated creations?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:58:47 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2013, 08:24:30 PM »
   118,  plus the bends of Ashley, plus the 60 bends of Miles, plus the dozens of bends and loops by Dan Lehman and Alan Lee, to name but two individuals, all those bends turned into loops by your ingenious "connect the dots" way, makes dozens of dozens. However, for the devoted believer / prophet who is interested only in the ONE, his own ONE, and himself, numbers greater than ONE do not exist - they are ghosts, and should be expelled to the eternal fire... :)
Your last ultimate loop knot didn't pass muster.  But since you have so many unnamed contenders, why don't you test them against each other and sort them and when you find your next ultimate loop (singular), start a new thread to dazzle us. 

I'd like to give you some criteria:

1. Simplicity
2. Simplicity
3. Did I mention simplicity?
4. Security (slack shaking, unusual load paths, etc).
5. Jam resistance (try small diameter nylon rope)
6. Easy to check
7. Efficiency of rope usage


« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:52:10 PM by roo »
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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2013, 10:02:24 PM »

   Reply, by xarax : ( The reader should judge if it was an "immediate" reply, or not...)
   June 09, 2011, 06:08:49 PM
   
   I believe that the lR-uL bend is the most interesting one, as the two overhand knots are maximally interlocked : The extend of the contact between the two links is quite large, probably more than adequate for securing the tails into the knot s nub. Also, I like the front/ back side symmetry, which makes the knot very easy to inspect ( as it is the case for the Zeppelin bend). I have also tested in slippery monofilament material, and it holds very well. It is only one tuck more complex that the Carrick bend, and its first curves are much wider, so I guess it will have a greater strength ( The Carrick is not such a strong knot).
   I do not know if you have tied this knot... If so, what are your first thoughts about it ?

    Reply, by roo :
    [silence...]
   
Please.  You heavily edited your original response many days later (June 18!) and you know it.  Your original response was that you refuse to respond.

After this disgusting attack is there any wonder why people might not want to dialog with you?  I don't think I can count the number of threads where the only person responding to you is, well, you.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 10:34:06 PM by roo »
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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2013, 10:16:46 PM »
   Of course not ! I could nt edit your reply, which is absent:) However, two years may be within the "immediate" limits, by your "rational" arithmetic !  :)
   And this was the ONLY time you asked something without a clear provocative manner ! What has happened to the other dozens of dozens knots I have presented  ? Have I edited your silence there, too ! I have admitted that I am not the chosen ONE of KnotGod, as you believe you are, so I am not good at miracles !  :)
   Do your homework ! It is never late ! You are left YEARS behind... Give it a try !
I've pointed out this to you before as just one example of my critiques:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1094.msg7456#msg7456

No silence there.

I also find it absurd that I'm supposed to know when you've secretly changed the entire content of your posts days or weeks later and respond accordingly. 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 10:29:09 PM by roo »
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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2013, 10:40:15 PM »
I've pointed out this to you before as just one example of my critiques:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1094.msg7456#msg7456
No silence there.

 :)  :)  :)
 You are the ONE ! You quote the very FIRST post I have submitted, FIVE YEARS AGO ! About a simple "connect-the-dots " Hunter s loop - is this "connect-the-dots" riddle the most difficult thing you can solve, I wonder...  :) And then, for the NEXT FIVE YEARS, for hundreds of posts, silence... Have you been traveling to Mars and back or something ?  :)
 
Maybe you should do a forum search before you keep repeating the same falsehoods.

For more examples:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1906.msg13150#msg13150

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20436#msg20436

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1931.msg13347#msg13347
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 10:47:31 PM by roo »
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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2013, 11:03:23 PM »
  . For every one you have been silent, I will charge you 5 dollars - I am such a generous person !  :)
Wow.  Nice non-apology. 

I don't know why you think I'm under some sort of obligation to evaluate everything you post. 
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Wed

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2013, 11:06:22 PM »
Going separate ways and cool off for a few days, is long overdue.

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2013, 11:19:09 PM »
I was discussing drnihili's yet-to-be-pictured knot, not the knot xarax posted.

You DO NOT collect 10 dollars for "critiques" on other people s knots !  :)

There are multiple layers to that thread.  One response was evaluating your submission, one wasn't.
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roo

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2013, 11:38:15 PM »
Going separate ways and cool off for a few days, is long overdue.

   Thank you Wed. However, I guess this is a thread I have started, and the evil impostor has not written ONE f word about ANY subject or knot presented here
   
What are you talking about?  I responded directly to your "fake" Zeppelin rant.

Calling me names is unnecessary.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 11:40:01 PM by roo »
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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2013, 11:47:06 PM »
You know what a rant is ? THAT is a rant : Enjoy yourself !

I'm not claiming anything.  I'm asking a question.  There is a difference.  If you are annoyed by questions of practicality in a Practical Knot forum, the question will not arise in the Chit Chat forum or the Knot Theory forum or the Fancy and Decorative Knotwork forum.

Translating via Google (I don't speak your native tongue):
Δεν είμαι διεκδίκηση τίποτα. Ρωτάω μια ερώτηση. Υπάρχει μια διαφορά. Αν είστε ενοχλούνται από ερωτήσεις του πρακτικότητα σε ένα φόρουμ Πρακτικές Knot, το ζήτημα δεν θα προκύψει στο forum Κουβεντούλα ή το Knot Θεωρία forum ή το Fancy και Διακοσμητικά Knot φόρουμ.
If that's the worst you can find, I'll take that as a compliment.  Notice there's no name-calling and not even so much as an all caps shout.  Your record (what hasn't been deleted) is more problematic:

1. There will be no more mass deleting of posts, thank you.

2. I am not the Web Admin. I am the Webmistress.

3. My job is not unpaid.

4. You are now trolling and I do not tolerate trolls [1]

This is your final warning.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29.

Xarax, you are a charlatan and also a nuisance. It is still not acceptable to take someone else's image and post it as though it were yours.

I never threatened you, I didn't call you names, but you are constantly answering with profanity, namecalling and ethnically derogatory remarks when you are caught pants down with your stupidity. The reason for respecting the rights of other people of course is that we should be civil in the forum, and that also requires respecting each other's rights. I won't take anyone to court for copying my images save cases where there would be an economic outcome. But I will still scorn anyone, who, unable to make a decent image himself, nicks those that someone else put down the effort to make.

[...]

In plain English, most of the time you're a PITA, and largely you do not contribute in a constructive way. Maybe the best way to react to your profanity would be blowing you raspberries at the computer screen, so childish has the forum become at your grace.

I think the ban is way overdue. It was like wathing a bad instant replay, the same thing over and over and over, but when the violence indicator in the way of a veiled threat of harm with the comments of guns and killing people came into play, it should have been stopped right then and there. JMO

With all due respect, I suggest that you better reflect on both the actual
issue and the "speaking" you claim is so well done here.  Yes, this debacle
went on too long and way beyond the pale of civility and reasonable
behavior; if anything, the action [ban] is overdue, which we may understand
comes from exactly a reluctance to be heavy handed that is here decried.

[...]

Then, beyond all this, there was the repeated posting of the
most bizarre nature, invoking demons and excrement and so
on, ascribing scatological and other derogatory attributes to
those of a contrary opinion.  Do not pretend that this was just
some tit-for-tat exchange --it wasn't.

i]"knots solve some problems, not in serious, life threatening situations any more..."
"They do not solve any major problem, they are not useful in any serious situation."
"we do not need them to solve problems posed in critical situations -(like the situations addressed by Heraklas, at 100 AD, read the reference in the relevant thread )"
"Do I actually use them, to solve crucial every day problems ? No !"
"their (critical) applications as tools is an art that belongs to the past."[/i]

???  I recently read a case where a climber applied a Prusik Hitch somehow to save the life a climbing buddy.  (He called it a Prusik hitch anyway.)  Apparently, all the other tools on the rope had failed.  The climber buddy was slipping to his death, and the climber needed to apply a knot then and there QUICKLY.  This case isn't the only one of it's kind that happens regularly.  I won't bother to find the case because you'll dismiss it somehow.  So, I don't want to waste my time.

Further, in average rock and tree climbing, application of properly tied knots is a life or death matter.  It doesn't get anymore critical and serious than that.  No, the stimulation you get from analyzing knots as structures is NOT as important, sorry.

  Most people, knot tyers included, believe that a knot is a means to an end rather than an end in itself. [...] 
  This is not a "wrong" attitude, it is just a restricted, narrow and naive attitude [...].
  We have attempted to discuss this issue in the Forum in the past, but it seems that when a view happens to be defended only by the "minority", the "majority" is suddenly turned into something of a mob - perhaps because established religious fundamentalists can not tolerate heretics !

   Personally, I do not accept ANY advice, from Moderators who allow members to have THIS as their "signature" :
 If you wish to add a troll (such as my stalker) to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".
Who would be upset about instructions on blocking a troll?  It sounds like an admission of guilt if there ever was one.

   Climbers are sooo poor knot tyers ! They know only a very small number of knots ( and they even naively believe that these knots are the only ones, and the best possible ones, suitable for them, simply because they do not know anything else...), they do not know ( and they do not want to learn ) how those knots "work", they do not know ( and they do not want to try to figure out ) how to improve them, and, last but not least, they just do not care about knots !

xarax your conceited garbage gets moderated once (I think it was twice actually in this thread but it's all running together so I'm not sure now) and you post it back up?  Mods, I will refrain once, but this is absurd.  He would be banned anywhere else. ...

That heading pretty much sums up why I am not going to interact on this site anymore. That this site condones the actions of a troll does not mean I have to. [...]

Since I believe most know what an internet troll is, I will start by saying that to allow consistently argumentative, unfair, out of context, disruptive, provocative, deluded, offensive, harassing and inflammatory posts against other forum members is to ask for trouble.  Yes, the conventional wisdom is "to not feed the troll".  In the case when one's posts are continually the target of trolling, this is easier said than done.  It is unfortunate that so many threads have either been ruined or highly tainted by trolling.  Removing the affected threads is probably a good idea, but, it is an unfortunate loss and addresses the symptoms and not the causes.  The root cause remains a threat.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 04:03:05 AM by roo »
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SS369

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2013, 12:00:00 AM »
So, after the intermission break, I would like to ask an on topic question.

Just another example of a true Zeppelin-like knot, a rope-made hinge where the two main bights of the two links are not hooked the one to the other, but connected through their tail pair, which play the role of the pivot.
  >>>  A slightly different dressing of the same knot, is shown in the fourth picture. A great advantage of the Zeppelin bend, is that the "pivot" remains almost perpendicular to the axis of the loading - therefore it confronts shear forces mainly rather than oblique friction forces. When this beneficial orientation is compromised, and the pair of the tails is not at a right angle to the pair of the standing ends ( like it happens in the bend shown in this post), the "pivot" has to withstand stronger friction forces, and function as a "wedge" - just as it happens to most other bends.

Is this indeed another dressing or is it tied differently? I have not been able to manipulate the fourth version into the previous one.

SS
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 12:00:47 AM by SS369 »

SS369

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Re: Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2013, 12:34:33 AM »
Looking at version 4 I see a figure 8 based Zeppelin.  Loads nicely and unties easily as the "original" does, but I am unsure that the added complexity (not much) adds any great attributes.

In my mind it does beat the Flemish bend.

SS