Author Topic: Two new Knots?  (Read 7536 times)

knotstar

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Two new Knots?
« on: October 13, 2012, 02:59:44 PM »
I recently "invented" a new bend type knot for quickly and easily tying two ropes together but which could be easily untied after being heavily loaded.  I did this because I found some of the existing bend type knots unecessarily difficult to tie and wanted something easier to tie..I am still experimenting with it, to make it even easier to release.
The first implementation of this Knot, which I call "The Easy Bend", can be seen here:

http://imageshack.us/a/img821/395/theeasybendknot.jpg

The second implementation is a tiny bit harder to tie, though still easy, but it does appear to be even easier to untie.
The main difference is the bight in the left hand rope is towards you instead of away from as in the pics above.  The working ends end up parallel but in opposite directions.  Quick release versions of both implementations can be produced by employing slip hitches on the working ends instead of simply passing the working ends through.
If anyone here can confirm if the first implementation is indeed a brand new knot, or not, that would be great.  Dan and Ken at IGKT are already aware of it as I have contacted them about it...I will have to take more pics showing the second implementation.


 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 03:04:23 PM by knotstar »

roo

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 05:34:20 PM »
I recently "invented" a new bend type knot for quickly and easily tying two ropes together but which could be easily untied after being heavily loaded.  I did this because I found some of the existing bend type knots unecessarily difficult to tie and wanted something easier to tie..I am still experimenting with it, to make it even easier to release.
The first implementation of this Knot, which I call "The Easy Bend", can be seen here:

http://imageshack.us/a/img821/395/theeasybendknot.jpg

The second implementation is a tiny bit harder to tie, though still easy, but it does appear to be even easier to untie.
The main difference is the bight in the left hand rope is towards you instead of away from as in the pics above.  The working ends end up parallel but in opposite directions.  Quick release versions of both implementations can be produced by employing slip hitches on the working ends instead of simply passing the working ends through.
If anyone here can confirm if the first implementation is indeed a brand new knot, or not, that would be great.  Dan and Ken at IGKT are already aware of it as I have contacted them about it...I will have to take more pics showing the second implementation.
In terms of execution and inspection, I prefer the symmetric Zeppelin Bend.  The security of the "Easy Bend" leaves much to be desired.

After loading the "Easy Bend" in 3/16" nylon, I found the bend to be difficult to untie! :(
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Luca

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 05:42:23 PM »
Hello knotstar,

The Easy bend(first implementation) seems to me a bend version(with a different dressing of the tails)of the so-called Algonquin bowline(ABOK #1045,page 189)discussed in these two threads:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=536.msg3829#msg3829

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=211.msg1522#msg1522

my impression is that, unfortunately,as noticed by roo, is not very easy to untie after load(at least in my 2.5 mm polyester little rope).

                                                                                                         Bye!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:50:51 PM by Luca »

X1

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 09:19:03 PM »
   With asymmetric bends, like this one, you never know which link is the weak one - i.e, which will slip or will break before the other - ( which might not matter ), or if the weaker link is a lot weaker than the other ( which matters a lot ! ). (The asymmetry in form has, as a consequence, an asymmetry in the distribution of the forces within the knot s nub, which, by its turn, might result at one link being a lot weaker than the other). And that is true even for the simplest, more used and known asymmetric bend, the Sheet bend. That is one reason we do not use or know many such bends, I guess. Another reason is that the lack of symmetry makes those knots hard to inspect - a wrongly tied symmetric knot ( where the one link is tied wrongly around the other, will manifest the mistake at once, while this will not happen to an wrongly tied asymmetric knot.
   From the two variations of this thread, I prefer the second one - where the tails leave the last bight and exit the knot pointing to opposite directions. We can tie this second knot also in two variations, depending upon the orfer ( over/under ) those two tails cross each other.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 09:20:19 PM by X1 »

knotstar

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 09:45:26 PM »
I recently "invented" a new bend type knot for quickly and easily tying two ropes together but which could be easily untied after being heavily loaded.  I did this because I found some of the existing bend type knots unecessarily difficult to tie and wanted something easier to tie..I am still experimenting with it, to make it even easier to release.
The first implementation of this Knot, which I call "The Easy Bend", can be seen here:

http://imageshack.us/a/img821/395/theeasybendknot.jpg

The second implementation is a tiny bit harder to tie, though still easy, but it does appear to be even easier to untie.
The main difference is the bight in the left hand rope is towards you instead of away from as in the pics above.  The working ends end up parallel but in opposite directions.  Quick release versions of both implementations can be produced by employing slip hitches on the working ends instead of simply passing the working ends through.
If anyone here can confirm if the first implementation is indeed a brand new knot, or not, that would be great.  Dan and Ken at IGKT are already aware of it as I have contacted them about it...I will have to take more pics showing the second implementation.
In terms of execution and inspection, I prefer the symmetric Zeppelin Bend.  The security of the "Easy Bend" leaves much to be desired.

After loading the "Easy Bend" in 3/16" nylon, I found the bend to be difficult to untie! :(

Actually I invented the easy bend because I found the Zeppelin bend unecessarily difficult to tie.  As for security...Its as strong as the rope its tied with and I use fairly slippery 3000kg breaking strain 12mm braided Nylon rope and I have never had a Easy Bend slip yet. 

roo

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2012, 09:56:25 PM »
I have never had a Easy Bend slip yet.
That's not security.  Try this:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotfaq.html

...under the "how do I test a knot" section.  The Easy Bend's slack shaking performace was lackluster.  And the jam I was talking about was surprisingly stubborn to undo after what I thought was merely moderate strain.

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knotstar

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 10:01:20 PM »
Hello knotstar,

The Easy bend(first implementation) seems to me a bend version(with a different dressing of the tails)of the so-called Algonquin bowline(ABOK #1045,page 189)discussed in these two threads:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=536.msg3829#msg3829

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=211.msg1522#msg1522

my impression is that, unfortunately,as noticed by roo, is not very easy to untie after load(at least in my 2.5 mm polyester little rope).

                                                                                                         Bye!

I have just tried the second implementation with 3mm paracord and loaded it...Afterwards I was able to untie it very easily, so I would agree that the fiirst implementation is probably best avoided with thin cord. 
In fact, forget the first altogether because I'm switching to the second from now on.

knotstar

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 10:06:30 PM »
I have never had a Easy Bend slip yet.
That's not security.


Sorry, but it is!...An unsecure knot is one that can slip...Under load the Easy bend will not slip, so it is secure IMO.

Quote
Try this:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotfaq.html

...under the "how do I test a knot" section.  The Easy Bend's slack shaking performace was lackluster.  And the jam I was talking about was surprisingly stubborn to undo after what I thought was merely moderate strain.

As  said in a previous reply, forget the first implementation as shown in the OP and use the second for your tests.

X1

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 10:34:16 PM »
Its as strong as the rope its tied with

   Ooops !  :) The holy Grail of knots does not exist, I am afraid...
   I have tied two other similar knots, where the left bight from which you start tying your knot is rotated 180 degrees around the bend s axis. ( We start tying the knot with he working end of the left bight "below" the standing end ). The one (B1) where the tails exit the knot s nub pointing to opposite directions  is also an interesting asymmetric bend. Tie it - if you have not tied it already -, and compare it with the two variations you have presented here.

Luca

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 11:23:49 PM »
Hi knotstar,

The second implementation of the Easy bend is quite easier to loosen respect  the first,but it seems to me strange that you feedback that it is easier to untie than the Zeppelin bend.Unlike roo, I do not know, and I do not have many means to test the knots,then, as a substitute, I use the smaller rope that I have, pulling with the strength of my arms, or running small trucker's hitches: my finding is that the Zeppelin bend(currently the king of bends IMO) is more stable and easy to loosen.

                                                                                                    Bye!

roo

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2012, 11:39:11 PM »
I have never had a Easy Bend slip yet.
That's not security.

Sorry, but it is!...An unsecure knot is one that can slip...Under load the Easy bend will not slip, so it is secure IMO.
:o
What an oddly low bar to set.  Just about any knot can take motionless static load.  That's not the real world.  People are not going to take your claims of security seriously if you neglect to subject your knots to slack shaking with various types of rope.
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knotstar

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 12:18:53 AM »
Its as strong as the rope its tied with

   Ooops !  :) The holy Grail of knots does not exist, I am afraid...
   I have tied two other similar knots, where the left bight from which you start tying your knot is rotated 180 degrees around the bend s axis. ( We start tying the knot with he working end of the left bight "below" the standing end ). The one (B1) where the tails exit the knot s nub pointing to opposite directions  is also an interesting asymmetric bend. Tie it - if you have not tied it already -, and compare it with the two variations you have presented here.

Yes, your pics show the alternative version I came up earlier which is easier to undo...Question is, is it an existing knot or a new one?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 06:07:28 AM »
The Easy bend (first implementation) seems to me a bend version
(with a different dressing of the tails)
of the so-called Algonquin bowline(ABOK #1045,page 189)discussed in these two threads:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=536.msg3829#msg3829

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=211.msg1522#msg1522

my impression is that, unfortunately,as noticed by roo,
is not very easy to untie after load(at least in my 2.5 mm polyester little rope).

Good eye, Luca!

Note that there might be some forcible loosening
by pulling the tails apart to pry through the knot some
SPart material, enabling the pulling out of the tails.
YMMV per material and force.

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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 06:27:24 AM »
   With asymmetric bends, like this one, you never know which link is the weak one
--i.e, which will slip or will break before the other-- ( which might not matter ),
or if the weaker link is a lot weaker than the other ( which matters a lot ! ).

Why don't/can't we know?

Quote
(The asymmetry in form has, as a consequence, an asymmetry in the distribution
of the forces within the knot s nub, which, by its turn, might result at one link
being a lot weaker than the other).  And that is true even for the simplest,
more used and known asymmetric bend, the Sheet bend.

Which we have yet to learn anything about this presumed
behavior bias, despite the knot being centuries old!  (What
does that tell you?!)

Quote
Another reason is that the lack of symmetry makes those knots hard to inspect
--a wrongly tied symmetric knot ( where the one link is tied wrongly around the other)
will manifest the mistake at once, while this will not happen to an wrongly tied asymmetric knot.

This is utter rubbish : it can be much easier to determine
the correctness of an asymmetric knot than many of the
moderately complex symmetric ones --sheet-bend-like ones
e.g. have one part (this is my "-like"ness) as the simple "U",
a bight, and need only recognition of whether the joining
end has been correctly reeved; whereas I believe that I can
tie an incorrect fig.8 eyeknot (with one *half* an overhand
and pass it off as the Real McCoy to those rockclimbers who
praise it for being so easily checkable!

Quote
From the two variations of this thread, I prefer the second one
--where the tails leave the last bight and exit the knot pointing to opposite directions.

You are, then, way ahead of me, here,
who cannot make any sense of the OP's "where the bight on the
left is towards you instead of away from you ..."
: huh --the bight
is left-to-right evenly distant from the viewer in the perpendicular plane
of the image!  (The only bight that conceivably comes "towards"
the viewer is the right-hand one in being reeved under-&-up
through the left-hand one.)


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X1

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Re: Two new Knots?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2012, 11:16:56 AM »
   Why don't/can't we know?

   Because we do not / we can not perform detailed experiments, that is why ! 

   (What does that tell you?!)

  That (almost) nobody has any real, scientific interest in knots -  and the few that have some, have also more interest in knot tyers ( themselves included), so they spend their time exchanging views about knot tyers views !

   This is utter rubbish : it can be much easier to determine the correctness of an asymmetric knot than many of the moderately complex symmetric ones

   No, it is true, because the human eye / brain can notice an asymmetry in an symmetric overall picture much more easily and quickly than the opposite.
I guess that this has to do with the axial or bilateral symmetry of the higher multicellular living species. The human eye / brain has made another step in this direction : It recognizes as "pretty" a face that is more symmetric than the others ( and as "ugly" the opposite - unfortunatelly for most of us !  :))

   See the attached pictures, for what I have thought should have been the second variation, and for the knot I had posted yesterday. We have an overhand knot in our right side, and we seek a way to attach the rope at the left side on this overhand knot, without tying a second overhand knot...
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 07:27:22 PM by X1 »