Author Topic: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped  (Read 14307 times)

TMCD

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2012, 01:31:37 AM »
I'm having a very hard time making out your picture. I don't know if it's the angle or what but that picture tells me very little. Perhaps some different shots from various angles would let us see what you've got.

The way I understood Dan's post was to tie the anchor bend around the standing part instead of the strangle knot. FWIW, I don't care for that idea...don't see any benefits by going that route. Of course maybe I didn't understand Dan's idea either?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2012, 05:16:10 AM »
A pic would be so much easier, but here goes. In an earlier,
you say simply
 "replace the Poacher's Noose (where the knot is a Strangle) with the Anchor Bend.
I'm sure that seems simple in your mind, but really it's not precise at all.

?!  --because you don't know the poacher's (strangle) noose ?
W/o checking what I said, I'll go from here:
replace the >>>knot<<< used in the PH (i.e., the strangle knot)
with the anchor bend (so, go from a "strangle noose" to "anchor-bend noose").


Another way : picture the line coming from left to tie
an anchor bend around a vertical, thin pole, oriented
so the knot's tail points upwards (along the pole);

now take the SPart of this *knot* and turn it anti-clockwise
so that it ... becomes (turns into) the pole (!) --which
pole magically transforms into identical cordage ;

with this turn & transformation we formed our noose,
the knot is what seals it, but is the anchor bend and not
the strangle knot

We might note that the strangle knot is not well oriented
for a circular binding noose, but more for a tight U-shaped
noose, with noose-SPart going down (say) and the upwards
return parallel to it then strangled; no, the a.b. well suits
the more perpendicular connection of line back to itself,
as will come with relatively larger-diameter objects being hitched
so, the line hitches to itself

That should do it.

Quote
I'm having a hard time making out your picture.

Needs more words!   :D


 ;)


knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2012, 06:43:37 AM »
Here's what I think Dan means...

Tie a loose Poacher's Noose (ABOK #409). Before tightening things, dress the Strangle Knot in the Poacher's Noose such that the Strangle Knot resembles an Anchor Bend tied around the standing end. The key is you do not need to untie or "replace" anything on the Poacher's Noose. Just loosen and redress.

Pics would be better.  I could provide pics, but it's Dan's gig. I'll let him provide some, but don't hold your breath.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 04:48:34 PM by knot4u »

Sweeney

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 01:17:54 PM »
I have been following this with interest - and completely misunderstood what Dan meant largely I think because there is no need to mention the Poacher's Noose (if I now do understand of course!). All that I think is involved is make a round turn and then instead of 2 half hitches etc around the standing part tie an Anchor Bend around it - this may take the form of a Poacher's Noose if the turns roll over. The Poacher's Noose doesn't otherwise enter into it. Seems to work well and if extra security is required then the Anchor Bend Variant  available. Simpler to explain to a novice than the Poacher's Noose.

Barry

Benboncan

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2012, 03:48:17 PM »
The poachers noose was a red herring to me as well. Eureka eventually though.

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2012, 05:54:20 PM »
For identification purposes, I'll refer to the knot Dan introduced above as the "Off Anchor Bend".

The Off Anchor Bend is too jam-prone for my taste. Unlike the Anchor Bend, the Off Anchor Bend cannot be flipped open and loosened after a heavy load. Play around with these two knots to see what I'm saying. Other knots mentioned here are more than adequately secure and not as jam-prone. On the other hand, the Off Anchor Bend may be suitable for a modern material that refuses to take a knot.

By the way, this Wikipedia article says the Anchor Bend jams in some modern materials. I would like a better description of how the Anchor Bend jams (e.g., what type of rope, etc.). I have never found the Anchor Bend to be that difficult to untie. For years, I avoided the Anchor Bend because of this article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_bend

 >:(
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 07:47:25 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2012, 03:55:06 AM »
Good grief !!   :o

Quote
And my idea re this sort of noose-hitching is to convert (re-orient)
the strangle noose into an anchor-bend noose --i.e., make
the double overhand that is oriented as a strangle knot into an
anchor bend. (Of course, one would tie this knot directly, not tie
the other than re-shape, as though making a topological show).

Far from being a red herring, "the poacher's noose" was just the sort
of "noose-hitch" structure I was addressing, and asking to simply
replace its *knot* with another --viz., with the anchor bend .
(The "re-orienting" had a *reddish* hue, perhaps; I just wanted
to point out the topological equivalence of the two *knots* of issue
--viz., strangle & anchor bend.   ;) )

Quote
FWIW, I don't care for that idea...don't see any benefits by going that route

And this is what I thought it was worth:
Quote
This should be as secure, might be slightly stronger, and should
be easier to untie, AND it accommodates larger diameter objects
well.
YMMV.

As for name, there is certainly no want for "off anchor bend" :
"anchor-bend noose" suffices.

Yes, it should be less easily untied than an anchor bend, as it will
require one to pull back on the knot in order to get through
some noose SPart, and then one should be able to loosen
the knot as usual. As for the *knot* jamming, well, yes, in
nylon esp. around a *ring* the constriction of rope against
itself can be mighty strong/tight (the nylon shrinking in diameter
with load, preventing the SPart from easing back into the knot
body when load is lost).


--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2012, 06:25:13 PM »
Dan, "Anchor Bend Noose" is not a good name. That name in itself is part of the confusion here. When you called it that (or something similar) before, I was trying every which way to add stuff to an Anchor Bend to make it a noose. Adding to the confusion, this thread is about a Round Turn and [knot]. It's not about nooses per se. It was hard to figure things out.

Again, this thread is a rare instance when I tried to figure out the new knot you're describing. I am certain most people are bypassing many of your descriptions when you try to describe a new knot by using words only. Most times, I simply don't have enough time to slow down and figure out what you mean. Pics rule!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 06:32:38 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2012, 07:13:16 PM »
Dan, "Anchor Bend Noose" is not a good name.
//
... this thread is about a Round Turn and [knot]. It's not about nooses per se.

That's just what a noose IS --a (round or not) turn & knot
(affixing the line to itself; the noose affixing the line
to the object).  The line is hitched and the object
is noosed.


--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2012, 08:14:26 PM »
Dan, "Anchor Bend Noose" is not a good name.
//
... this thread is about a Round Turn and [knot]. It's not about nooses per se.

That's just what a noose IS --a (round or not) turn & knot
(affixing the line to itself; the noose affixing the line
to the object).  The line is hitched and the object
is noosed.


--dl*
====

After further thought, you are right. "Anchor Bend Noose" falls in line with the conventional way of naming. Other examples are Strangle Noose, Overhand Noose, Double Overhand Noose, etc. (I'm still right about the pics though.)

HOWEVER, I will say the word "Bend" in the name "Anchor Bend" is a misnomer in modern times. It's unfortunate we have to perpetuate the misnomer.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 08:15:37 PM by knot4u »

Benboncan

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2012, 08:28:25 PM »
Quote
That's just what a noose IS --a (round or not) turn & knot (affixing the line to itself; the noose affixing the line to the object). The line is hitched and the object is noosed.

By that logic would you call a Blake's or any other friction hitch a noose rather than hitch?

Quote
HOWEVER, I will say the word "Bend" in the name "Anchor Bend" is amisnomer in modern times. It's unfortunate we have to perpetuate the misnomer.

I concur, but we don't have to perpetuate it at all, language evolves.

TMCD

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2012, 03:53:22 AM »
A noose is described as the following: A loop with a running knot, tightening as the rope or wire is pulled and typically used to hang people or trap animals. That's the common definition given on the internet of a "noose".

Two Half Hitches is a Clove Hitch tied around the standing end, but it's never referred to as a noose. Although I can get it to operate in much the same manner as a noose if I desire. One can easily slide the CH down the SP and then pull on the SP to close the CH (two half hitches in this case) acting as a noose.

When most folks think of a noose, myself included, they automatically think of a sliding type of knot that eventually chokes down, such is the action in a hangman's noose or the poacher's knot.

I do agree that the name Anchor Bend is very misleading because we're not bending together two pieces of rope. I'd rather it be called Anchor Hitch and Anchor Hitch Variant.

Sweeney

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2012, 10:21:22 AM »
I do agree that the name Anchor Bend is very misleading because we're not bending together two pieces of rope. I'd rather it be called Anchor Hitch and Anchor Hitch Variant.

I don't think anyone is likely to disagree but unfortunately every knot book in print uses this name so  to change it would cause more confusion than now. Bear in mind that a bend originally meant " the knot by which one rope is fastened to another or to an anchor" from the Saxon bindan meaning to bind (Falconer's New Universal Dictionary of the Marine, 1815 edition. The verb "to bend" is "to fasten one rope to another etc"). The Fisherman's Bend is the same knot construction though used around a spar so what we've lost is the context in which the names were used.

Barry
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 01:29:12 PM by Sweeney »