Author Topic: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped  (Read 14310 times)

knot4u

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Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« on: September 19, 2012, 11:48:10 PM »
I've been experimenting with these three hitches in various materials and applications. All three are default hitches that will work on a wide range of objects.

1. Round Turn and Two Half Hitches
An advantage of Two Half Hitches over both the Gnat and the Buntline is how it enables a user to keep all the tension in the line. The Gnat and the Buntline require at least some ceasing up by the standing end, thereby reducing tension in the line if there is any. For example, a RT and Two Half Hitches can be used effectively to finish a Trucker Hitch, while a Gnat or a Buntline would be poor choices.

2. Round Turn and Gnat
So far, I'm quite impressed by the Round Turn (RT) and Gnat. Although the Gnat can be tied without a RT, the RT provides assurance the Gnat will be easy to untie after a hard strain. An advantage of the Gnat over Two Half Hitches is the Gnat seems to be more resistant to vibration and jostling. Specifically, the Gnat tends to get tighter as the load increases, which is not the case with Two Half Hitches. An advantage of the Gnat over the Buntline Slipped is the Gnat does not need a slip. Having no slip makes the knot cleaner and less susceptible to tampering, especially while under a load.

3. Round Turn and Buntline Slipped
An advantage of the Buntline is, of course, its long history of being a highly secure hitch and the confidence that it provides.

Thoughts???
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 05:08:43 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2012, 06:42:32 AM »
You might add to your trio :

4) Backhanded hitch + clove noose (aka "2HH")

5) anchor (fisherman's) bend & 2nd tuck

6) anchor bend with round-turn finish
(i.e., before the usual tail-tuck, turn the tail around
the SPart and then tuck it --the point being to make
this round-turn gripping mechanism for some
slack-security).

Only #4 might be tied under tension.  #6 wants to be set
pretty firmly, to set that gripping of the tail snug to the
knot and put some tension in the body (and thus lessen
the extent to which loading will pull the gripping turn
off of the body if ... ).

Conceivably, the gnat's tail could be further tucked
under the round turn of your construction?

--dl*
====

X1

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 04:01:03 PM »
   There are many more 1-wrap hitches than those 6... Some of them can be tied under tension, and some can be tensioned after they have been tied. I would only like to mention the " Dines knot" + HH (1). ( See the attached pictures)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3659

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 05:25:55 PM »
The topic here is Round Turn and [knot], and other hitches having 2 wraps. For example, here is a Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, which has 2 wraps around the object:



versus the Two Half Hitches below, which has only 1 wrap around the object...


« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 12:01:31 AM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 08:33:41 PM »
You might add to your trio :

4) Backhanded hitch + clove noose (aka "2HH")

5) anchor (fisherman's) bend & 2nd tuck

6) anchor bend with round-turn finish
(i.e., before the usual tail-tuck, turn the tail around
the SPart and then tuck it --the point being to make
this round-turn gripping mechanism for some
slack-security).

Only #4 might be tied under tension.  #6 wants to be set
pretty firmly, to set that gripping of the tail snug to the
knot and put some tension in the body (and thus lessen
the extent to which loading will pull the gripping turn
off of the body if ... ).

Conceivably, the gnat's tail could be further tucked
under the round turn of your construction?

--dl*
====

Regarding the Backhand plus Clove, besides adding tension, I've always wondered what the Backhand does for me. Or is adding tension the whole point?

Regarding the Anchor Bend + 2nd Tuck, have you found this knot jams? Does the 2nd tuck add to the jam-ability? Side note, where an Anchor Bend is possible, I have found a Timber to be preferable.

Regarding the Anchor Bend with a wrap around the standing end, does the wrap add to the jam-ability? Or have you found this is not a problem after a heavy load?

Regarding the Round Turn and Gnat, what does tucking the working end under the Round Turn do for me?

« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 12:03:45 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 04:41:43 AM »
Regarding the Backhand plus Clove, besides adding tension,
I've always wondered what the Backhand does for me. Or is adding tension the whole point?
Yes, I've wondered, too.  It takes off more load from the knot,
I think, and gives the knot something (the "backhand"-ing turn)
to abut when hitching.
I played around a little before these keystrokes, with slick PP
marine kernmantle (parallel-fibres core), which compresses
into oval-/near-flat-ness.  Eh !?  I also tried a full turn around
the SPart, and maybe liked that better (given circumstances,
this "full" amounts around 270degrees, I think; you continue
in the same direction the SPart takes in going round the object).

Ashley talks of the "back-handed" aspect in four places
between p.293 & 310, but without great edification.

Quote
Regarding the Anchor Bend + 2nd Tuck, have you found this knot jams?
Does the 2nd tuck add to the jam-ability?
(Side note, where an Anchor Bend is possible, I have found a Timber to be preferable.)
Hmmm, I see that Ashley's version of this differs from what
I had in mind --he tucks going *up the SPart* whereas I go
the other direction, which follows the draw of the SPart when
loaded.  Hmmm.  Either way should help make the knot more
secure-when-slack.  (To explain *direction* : if SPart turns
around object from *noon* clockwise --with the perspective
of looking at a cross-section of round spar--, Ashley puts
the extra tuck *after noon*, mine takes it back before noon;
the SPart's draw will go anti-clockwise.)

The timber hitch should become less welcome, less able to hold
sufficient tucks for comfort, as the object diameter moves from
*pile* towards *ring* --*spar* being a middle size--; the anchor
bend
suits the smaller end of things, though for an extra
tuck it really needs a "fat" ring or spar.

And the round turn on the SPart can be useful for the T.H.
as well, and is shown by Ashley.  I'd like to see it tested for
both security and strength (there have been rumors from
arborists of timber hitches failing --usually with supposed
fault being insufficient tucks, but ...).


Quote
Regarding the Anchor Bend with a wrap around the standing end, does the wrap add to the jam-ability?
Or have you found this is not a problem after a heavy load?
I can't say that it "jams" in the sense of becoming very
difficult to untie; but the point of it is to "jam" in the sense
of being unlikely to loosen when slack.  YMMV with materials,
and so on.  I use it, e.g., to secure a thin solid-braid nylon
cord I've tied to the two finger rings of some forceps,
where I wanted the hitch to stay tight in place, which
keeps the somewhat stiff cord pointing away (rather than
the hitch rotating and cord flopping around).  The turns
around the ring give sufficient grip, and the turn around
the SPart also seems pretty effective.  (But in that marine
PP cord mentioned above, ha, forget it --too slick.)

Quote
Regarding the Round Turn and Gnat,
what does tucking the working end under the Round Turn do for me?
Tucks it out of mischief, I suppose.  Circumstances will
determine whether this is much of a concern, but given
the turn on the object, the added tucking is an option.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 05:24:21 AM by Dan_Lehman »

X1

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 08:40:37 AM »
The topic here is Round Turn and [knot], and other hitches having 2 wraps.

  With two wraps around the object, the possibilities are multiplied. It is much easier to secure the second end, because it now bears a small fraction of the total load. The Bull hitch, for example, secured with a half hitch, is a fine solution. If we replace the double nipping loop "neck"  of the Bull hitch with an overhand knot, we get another tight hitch (1) - which can also be secured by a half hitch. (See the first attached picture).
   It is well known that two half hitches will hold almost everything - so any more complex noose + a half hitch compound knot would probably be an even better, tighter solution.
   In place of the "Gnat" hitch, we can use another overhand knot based noose, ( second attached picture ) - or an even simpler overhand knot based hitch (2)( third attached picture ). In place of the Buntline, we can use the "Buntline extinguisher" or the second Constrictor-around-the-SP noose/hitch (3)(fourth attached picture).
   For the record, I also mention the single or double (4) "simple hitch a la Gleipnir" . I believe we should not dismiss those hitches because they do not have " a long history " ... without first trying and testing them. 

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3197.0
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3288.msg19765#msg19765
3) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21738#msg21738
4) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22228#msg22228

   

TMCD

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 12:39:08 AM »
Of the three hitches you mentioned, I personally like the RT/SB the best. You could also add into this mix of hitches a round turn and a slipped lobster buoy hitch. With the slipped buntline, you get the best of both worlds, security and ease of untying. The slipped lobster buoy hitch gives you the same security and ease of untying too, you simply never hear of someone slipping the lobster buoy hitch though.

Another excellent hitch is the Anchor Bend Variant, it's a round turn within a round turn. Maybe Dan was talking about it above, wasn't sure though. It's probably my favorite hitch for smallish boat anchors because it traps the working end so well, similar to a buntline or lobster buoy hitch in that regard.

As I've pointed out here before, arborists are only supposed to tie in with either a buntline, anchor bend variant, lobster buoy or poacher's noose because they trap the working end where it will not come loose. Two half hitches and even a round turn and two half hitches aren't really deemed secure enough in the arborist community. I've watched some of their safety videos on you tube and learned about their knotting preferences.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 05:55:54 PM »
You could also add into this mix of hitches a round turn and a slipped lobster buoy hitch. With the slipped buntline, you get the best of both worlds, security and ease of untying. The slipped lobster buoy hitch gives you the same security and ease of untying too, you simply never hear of someone slipping the lobster buoy hitch though.

I still remain skeptical at the alleged ease of untying these
knots with a slip-tuck finish; I've seen otherwise.  Regarding
the LBH, I see that I'm inclined to tie a different orientation
of the cow hitch --to bring the tail though so that it is trapped
between the SParts of hitch & noose (I regard this as a "noose
hitch" --the object is *noosed*, the rope *hitched*).

Quote
Another excellent hitch is the Anchor Bend Variant, it's a round turn within a round turn. Maybe Dan was talking about it above, wasn't sure though. It's probably my favorite hitch for smallish boat anchors because it traps the working end so well, similar to a buntline or lobster buoy hitch in that regard.

Yes, it was that that I pointed out could have the additional
tuck made in the other direction.

Quote
As I've pointed out here before, arborists are only supposed to tie in with either a buntline, anchor bend variant, lobster buoy or poacher's [strangle] noose because they trap the working end where it will not come loose.

And my idea re this sort of noose-hitching is to convert (re-orient)
the strangle noose into an anchor-bend noose --i.e., make
the double overhand that is oriented as a strangle knot into an
anchor bend. (Of course, one would tie this knot directly, not tie
the other than re-shape, as though making a topological show).
This should be as secure, might be slightly stronger, and should
be easier to untie, AND it accommodates larger diameter objects
well.


--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 07:31:53 PM »
And my idea re this sort of noose-hitching is to convert (re-orient)
the strangle noose into an anchor-bend noose --i.e., make
the double overhand that is oriented as a strangle knot into an
anchor bend. (Of course, one would tie this knot directly, not tie
the other than re-shape, as though making a topological show).
This should be as secure, might be slightly stronger, and should
be easier to untie, AND it accommodates larger diameter objects
well.

I don't get it.

Do you mean tie a Strangle Knot where the tuck is on an Anchor Bend?

Also, your new structure is easier to untie than what, Anchor Bend or Strangle Noose?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 07:48:40 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 07:24:52 PM »
I don't get it.
Do you mean tie a Strangle Knot where the tuck is on an Anchor Bend?

?!  I mean, quite simply, tie an anchor bend vice strangle when
forming the noose-hitch --these are identical *tangles*,
topologically, but different in geometry & physical effect.

I suspect that the anchor-bend noose will be less easily untied
than the knot directly on the object, as it will have some grip
upon the noose's SPart and so be in tension, whereas the
knot directly hitched often stays pretty easily loosened.


--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 02:44:42 AM »
I don't get it.
Do you mean tie a Strangle Knot where the tuck is on an Anchor Bend?

?!  I mean, quite simply, tie an anchor bend vice strangle when
forming the noose-hitch --these are identical *tangles*,
topologically, but different in geometry & physical effect.

Am I the only one who still doesn't get it? Can someone else explain or provide a picture?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2012, 06:20:19 AM »
Am I the only one who still doesn't get it? Can someone else explain or provide a picture?

What are you not understanding?
Do you know what a noose is?
A noose or "noose-hitch" (really much the same, but where
the *snare*/sliding aspect isn't the point, but hitching
fixed/"fast" (as in "make fast")) is a compound structure
which contains a *knot*.

Of where the *knot* part of a noose is?  (It's a part,
not the whole, in this view.)

I think that you know how to tie that "poacher's noose"
--where the *knot* is a strangle--,
and you know what an anchor bend is,
so should be able to understand replacing the former
with the latter (or, as I put it at first, re-"orienting" the former
into the latter --making the point of their equivalence)?

And, as with the strangle in the poacher's noose,
point the tail away from the object!


--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 03:41:35 PM »
Am I the only one who still doesn't get it? Can someone else explain or provide a picture?

What are you not understanding?
Do you know what a noose is?
A noose or "noose-hitch" (really much the same, but where
the *snare*/sliding aspect isn't the point, but hitching
fixed/"fast" (as in "make fast")) is a compound structure
which contains a *knot*.

Of where the *knot* part of a noose is?  (It's a part,
not the whole, in this view.)

I think that you know how to tie that "poacher's noose"
--where the *knot* is a strangle--,
and you know what an anchor bend is,
so should be able to understand replacing the former
with the latter (or, as I put it at first, re-"orienting" the former
into the latter --making the point of their equivalence)?

And, as with the strangle in the poacher's noose,
point the tail away from the object!


--dl*
====

Hey Dan, this happens a lot. You have a structure in mind. To you, your words obviously describe the structure. However, others are not quite sure what you're talking about. Notice that nobody has interjected themselves into the conversation. My guess is that others got confused early and are not motivated to figure it out.

I can guess what I think you mean, and I may be right. However, as you know, if I'm one Half Hitch off, then the entire knot can have an entirely different function and performance. Explaining a new knot in words only is not acceptable for my purposes. No worries though, it's not the end of the world. I'll just miss out.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Round Turn and... Two Half Hitches / Gnat / Buntline Slipped
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 05:06:26 PM »
... You have a structure in mind. To you, your words obviously describe the structure. ...

I can guess what I think you mean, and I may be right. However, as you know, if I'm one Half Hitch off, ...

In some cases, what you say might be true --that would
be with a truly new structure--, but it cannot be so here.
Thus, I would really like to know where in reading my FEW
words you find ambiguity or vagueness or inconsistency
and can't understand.  You need to give some help here in
where the words fail.  Because THIS case is soooo simple,
using one KNOWN (venerable, "basic", referable) knot.

Quote
My guess is that others got confused early and are not motivated to figure it out.

And that would be sad, too.  But before help comes in,
please respond to the above.  This has been all one-sided now :
I make keystrokes and you act as though they're not showing.
The focus should be on the poacher's (strangle) noose and simply
swapping knot-for-knot in that.


--dl*
====