Author Topic: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.  (Read 15524 times)

X1

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2012, 04:11:54 AM »
obviously one particular group, and they can be exhaustively counted with ease

   Only few things are obvious, and almost nothing is easy... :)
   Why do they belong to "one particular group"   ?
   Try to make a catalogue of all the bends you know, or you can learn. When you reach number 200, you will be less sure about this "exhaustively" than you are now ... and you will be very tired, believe me !
   I do not believe that people want to know many bends, or even that they want to know how many bends are known, and learn that there are many still unknown. And by "people", I mean not only "knot users", but also "knot tyers." However, I hope that the exhaustive enumeration would be accomplished by the mathematicians, using sophisticated computer programs (1).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4021.msg23966#msg23966

kd8eeh

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2012, 04:22:27 AM »
firstly, i have gone and done these exhaustive lists of bends, but they were all encopasing and of all bends.  however, i am saying that if we are able to break it down into simple catagories, like these are, withe the tails both passed through two separate overhands and leaving perpendicular to the standing parts, then we can count all of the knots in that catagory.  i have no faith that knot theorists will ever do anything like this because they do not have a sense of real knots, although they do have perhaps a more ideal way of describing these, their method would quickly say that there are infinite for the same reason that i previously said there were infinite.  knot theorists do not have a sense of practical.  however, in this catagory, there are less that 20 knots, including asymetrical  ones.  there are not 200 bends that are of this nature.  also, this is all that knot theorists would do with fancy computer algorithyms, by considering what ways two overhands could be connected and then considering all of the possible permutations of that connection.  then, we can get a very concrete and very real understanding of how many of these bends there are.

X1

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »
these exhaustive lists of bends

  Then you should start a thread and publish them in this Forum. Each time you will claim that it is complete, I will tell you another one, and then you will be called to do the same, ans so on. This way we will reach 200 in no time ! :)


  However, in this catagory, there are less that 20 knots, including asymmetrical ones.
  There are not 200 bends that are of this nature.

Please, define which category, and what nature you have in mind.
( The angle between the tail and the Standing end does not play any major role in a knot, we should not base any classification scheme in that ... Moreover, this angle can often change if the knot is dressed differently, is more or less tightened, or even if the material is more or less slippery ).
(I said that there are more than 200 simple bends (end-to-end knots) known already, of any category or nature

kd8eeh

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 04:03:32 AM »
As to this particular category, I am saying all of the knots that are formed by two overhand knots where the first turns of each knot are placed on top of each other or interlocked, then the tails wrap around the standing part, and both tails are finished by running them through the first turns of both overhand knots.  Perhaps an exhaustive list may be difficult to form, but even so, I recon that the hunter's bend could have been discovered by grouping this category of knots, and finding what was missing from the category.  I would hope, at least, that by categorizing overhand to overhand bends, we may be able to find the gaps like the hunter's bend and fill them, to have, if not an exhaustive list, a better list than what we currently have.

kd8eeh

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2012, 05:34:04 AM »
In regards to the original topic of this page, here is a nice overhand to overhand bend that is symetric and similar to a fisherman's knot.

X1

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2012, 04:47:20 PM »
a nice overhand to overhand bend that is symmetric and similar to a fisherman's knot.

   It is nice, it is not very symmetric ( it can be tied in a more symmetric variation - see the attached picture ) , and it has no relation to the fisherman s knot whatsoever. It is a variation of the Zeppelin bend, which has some elements reminding a bowline-to-bowline bend.
See :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4132.msg24886#msg24886
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 04:53:12 PM by X1 »

kd8eeh

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2012, 06:07:42 AM »
I see it as related to a fishemen's knot because it is just one tuck away from a fisherman't knot if you tie the ends such that the overhands tails to towards the center of the knot instead of the outside of the knot. (also, it may be that i have used fisherman's knots longer than zeplin knots, as they were probably the first decent bend i ever learned how to tie, so i am somewhat biased)

X1

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2012, 11:15:17 PM »
I see it as related to a fishemen's knot because it is just one tuck away from a fisherman't knot

   There are MANY knots that are "just" one tuck away from the fisherman s knot... At such simple knots, a tuck is too many. The great majority of the known practical knots have a difference of "just" one or two tucks. If everything is related to everything else, we better find a more meaningful relation, so we would able to categorize things in more than one category !  :)

xarax

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2014, 05:47:54 PM »
   I should mention that the interlinked Bend C, shown in Reply#3 (1), is the reverse of the Diamond bend, tied by Miles ( M. B7). However, Miles starts from a very different tying diagram - different from the form of the loose knot shown in the attached picture - and that may confuse the reader, so no wonder that neither me nor anybody else had pointed out this relation.
   I am almost sure that Miles himself should had tied this bend, but, for unknown reasons, he does not mention it in his book ( I do not know if he mentions it in any of the four articles in Knotting Matters, where he had presented it (2)). I believe that, in this, "reversed" version, it can be tied more easily than in the "normal" version. I can not say in advance which of the two will hold better, and/or jam less, under heavy loading - I have not tested them.
   I think that a priest should better restrain from baptizing with a different name a baby when he holds it by its arms, and the same baby when he holds it upside down, by its feet :), so let us label this bend as "reverse Diamond bend". We can not dispense with the "reversed" bends by keeping the same name with the "normal" bends ( and in most cases, where both versions form stable and secure knots, we can not even decide which we should name "normal" and which "reversed"...), because they may be altogether different, differently working knots ( in this particular case they are not, they can be dressed so they look, at least, quite similar ), but we can half the number of names we have to remember !  :)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4016.msg23918#msg23918
2. R.E.Miles : Knotting Matters 4, 7, 8, 9 .
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 03:50:50 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Interlinked and interwoven overhand knot bends.
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2014, 03:45:41 PM »
      More pictures of the interwoven bend "B" shown in the very first post of this thread - which, to keep the number of new names of new knots as small as possible, I have decided to baptize " Difficult-to-untie bend " :) - in contrast to the " Easy-to-untie bend ", presented at (2). The interesting thing is that there are still simple, easy-to-tie bends that are "new" - which, for such simple tangles, means only that, probably, they were not published anywhere till now.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3670.0
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 03:50:05 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.