Author Topic: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines  (Read 13633 times)

X1

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Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« on: August 07, 2012, 05:58:53 PM »
   The "Eskimo" Girth-hitched bowlines are quite similar to the standard "Eskimo" bowlines - the only dfference is that the single nipping loop has been replaced by the double nipping loop, in the form of a girth hitch that encircles the two legs of the "Eskimo" collar.
   As the girth hitch stays at a right angle to the standing end axis, the working end, when it enters the coil "tube" made by the two adjacent nipping loops, can pass from the one or the other side. ( See the first attached picture). The girth hitch itself is symmetric, but the nipping structure based on it is not - so the two loops shown at the first attached picture, although they might deceivably look like two mirror symmetric knots, they are, in fact, very different. If one compares the two structures under a moderate loading, it is easy to see that the one, shown at the left side of the picture, is much more stable than the other, shown at the right side of the picture. So, even without the help of the "Eskimo" collar, the nipping lstructure shown at the left will be able to bear some load, while the nipping structure shown at the right will degenerate into something else.
   Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowline based upon the nipping structure shown at the left, will be more stable, as an end of line loop, than the one based upon the nipping structure shown at the right. At the next two  pictures, one cas see the left-handed and the right-handed variations of this type of the Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowline. Pay attention to the way the tail passes under  the continuation of the eye-leg-of-the-bight, that makes a sharp turn before it enters into the coil "tube". In this position, the tail is squeezed in between the rims of the nipping loops and the other leg of the collar, so we can expct that is secured very effectively. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 10:28:21 PM by X1 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2012, 07:25:18 PM »
...
   Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowline based upon the nipping structure shown at the right, will be more stable, as an end of line loop, than the one based upon the nipping structure shown at the right.
Note the error.

My inclinations ran in the other direction (to your photos),
and I sought the knot with the main nipping part
(I resist "loop", nb!) ending up in the center of the
entanglement --the complementary half of the hitch
on one side, the reach & turn (= bight) of the tail
going to the opposite side.

.:. But, by any form, this is one unsightly and unappealing knot.
(In contrast to the more bowlinesque (vs. Eskimo'd) variations
in which the structure runs more in alignment with tension.)


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X1

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 10:58:09 PM »
...
   Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowline based upon the nipping structure shown at the right, will be more stable, as an end of line loop, than the one based upon the nipping structure shown at the right.
Note the error.

Note the error. :)
The part of the text that you have highlighted with red, is OK, it was the other part that was wrongly typed. In fact, the erroneous sentence was meant to be nothing more than a repetition of a previous sentence :

If one compares the two structures under a moderate loading, it is easy to see that the one, shown at the left side of the picture, is much more stable than the other, shown at the right side of the picture

Thank you - I have now edited my text.

But,...this is one unsightly and unappealing knot.
(In contrast to the more bowlinesque (vs. Eskimo'd) variations in which the structure runs more in alignment with tension.)

   It is not more unsightly and more unappealing that the standard "Eskimo" bowline/s itself / themselves. In any "Eskimo" bowline, the continuation of the eye-leg-of-the-bight, in order to enter into the coil "tube", makes a sharp turn - which is a good thing, because much of the tension that comes from the bight is dissipated and absorbed at this turn ( so the rim of the collar is relieved from a great part of its duty), AND a bad thing, because the orientation of the nipping structure is not in alignment with the standing end, indeed. So, I think that those bowlines should only be compared to the other types of "Eskimo" "bowlines" - and not to the "bowlinesque" bowlines.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 03:29:40 AM »
Note the error. :)

Well, okay : but I really hadn't meant that the red was wrong,
just that the repetition was, though it was natural to think the
second was a bum copy ... .  --bad use of (just one) color!
 :-[

If one compares the two structures under a moderate loading, it is easy to see that the one, shown at the left side of the picture, is much more stable than the other, shown at the right side of the picture

But my take is that this stage is incomplete and with the
closure of the collar in the right one there will be balance in the
entanglement around the SPart left & right, in contrast to the
left-side basis, where all the knotting falls on one side.
(They are both ungainly.)

Quote
In any "Eskimo" bowline, the continuation of the eye-leg-of-the-bight, in order to enter into the coil "tube", makes a sharp turn - which is a good thing, because much of the tension that comes from the bight is dissipated and absorbed at this turn ( so the rim of the collar is relieved from a great part of its duty), ...

Hmmm, how much force is there to dissipate in the like structure
of a sheepshank --i.e., where a bight is nipped without collaring
anything?!  Methinks you overpay the turn, for services unneeded!


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« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 06:37:26 AM by Dan_Lehman »

X1

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 07:43:14 AM »
But my take is that this stage is incomplete and with the closure of the collar in the right one there will be balance in the entanglement around the SPart left & right, in contrast to the left-side basis, where all the knotting falls on one side.  (They are both ungainly.)

  Correct. However, I tried to compare the stability of the bowline-like nipping structures themselves, in isolation / independently of the presence of the collar rims - not the finished knots.  Nowadays, I follow a standard procedure : I do not consider the finished knot right from the start. Instead, I try to examine how the knot behaves when : 1 , there is only one leg of the would-be collar penetrating the nipping loop(s), and : 2, when  both legs are penetrating the nipping loop(s), but the collar rims are very loose, or - as agent_Smith suggested - cut off !  If you do this, you will see what happens : The nipping structure at the left t is able to bear some loading, and remains in the same compact shape, while the nipping stricture at the right degenerates into someting else ( at the best case, into two separated nipping loops, the one above the other).
   It is reasonable to suppose that, under extreme circumstances, the nipping loops would be forced to rely to nothing else than themselves, i.e. that they would confront their tendency to degenerate into open helices by their own structures, without any the help offered by the collars ( that would have been already pulled off the coil "tube", and so they will be very loose).
   If you do that, if you remove the one leg of the collar/s, or of you cut of the rim, and examine the "adjustable noose" that is left , you will see what I mean immediately. It might be a good strategy or a misleading one - but, at the time being, it is the only thing we can do  - because we can not imagine, without experiments, what the bowline would look line under severe, almost catastrophic loading. To my view, this strategy gives an indication  of the ability of a nipping structure to be self-stabilizing or not - and so of the security of the bowline, in the broader sense. That is why I have appreciated the double nipping loops of the Water bowline, the Girth-hitched common bowline, and the double crossed nipping loops bowline. They are very stable structures, that will resist opening up and degenerating into open helices, even without the help of the collar s second leg, or of the collar s rim.

 
you overpay the turn, for services unneeded!

   The fact that, at the standard, common bowlines, or their close relatives ( the Sheepshank, the ABoK#160, and the Gleipnir ),  indeed,this turn is not needed, does not mean it is a bad thing ! On the contrary, I have seen that it is very effective - although one might say that it forces the strands of the the rope to make a tight turn, not so-good a thing...I have even seen that there are knots where this turn, and this turn only, is sufficient to relieve the leg coming from the loaded bight so much, that we do not need the collarany more  ! I have followed this strategy to tie adjustable nipping loops, where the orientation of the nipping loop(s) "tube" remains at right angle in relation to the standing end - so that the continuation of the eye-leg-this-bight is forced to make this sharp turn,and it was proved to be very effective. In fact, this strategy ( to force a tensioned line to make a sharp 90, or more, degrees turn, so a great portion of the tensile forces will be dissipated / absorbed at the area of the turn, and there will  remain mush less that has to be dealt by the subsequent nipping structure ) is one of the the main reasons behind the effectiveness of many adjustable tensioners / binders. See:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3315.0
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21229#msg21229
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17836#msg17836
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17841#msg17841
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17842#msg17842
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17843#msg17843




« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 07:50:33 AM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 08:15:30 PM »
   I believe that the best post-eye-tiable candidates to replace the retraced fig.8 loop in demanding applications, are the double nipping loop + double collar bowline-like eyeknots (the "mirrored" Girth hitched bowline, for example). Many people, following the well-known conservatism of the knot tyers community, may not wish to call those eyeknots "bowlines", but the issue of names is a separate one - and a minor one, too.   
   I always search for a double nipping loop bowline-like eyeknot that would be very secure even when tied with one collar, and then I finish/complete it by adding a second collar, and by driving the second leg of that collar through both openings of the double nipping structure. Doing this at the already very secure Girth hitched "Eskimo" bowline shown in this thread, we get the eyeknot shown in the attached pictures.
   We all know that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, and that de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum.... I have presented a double collar Pretzel bowline-like eyeknot, which I decided that I do not like as much as I had wished/expected,-for whatever reasons-(1), so, to close the books with a positive balance, I thought that I should also show the double collar version of the "unsightly and unappealing:) Girth hitched "Eskimo" bowline, presented in this thread some time ago. I do not like unsightly and unappealing knots, and I would go as far as to declare such a knot a "bad" knot, even if, at the first sight, it may seem to "work" fine ! I came to believe that, in Nature, beauty reveals some elements of a deeper truth... Regarding knots, the un-interrupted flow of graceful lines, and the balanced distribution of the volume of the knot s nub into the separate segments that run through and around it, is, in most cases, a sure sign of a secure and strong knot.
   I dare to say that this knot has an almost "feminine" beauty ( with this, I mean a "Belluccian" beauty... :)) - which I compare to the beauty of the "similar" knots presented at (2)(the pseudo-Zeppelin loops), and at (3)(the "Eskimo" 8 bowline, by Alan Lee). Of course, it is a most secure loop - its nipping structure is so well balanced that it can remain "closed", and hold the eye leg of the bight, even without the help of any of its two collars. So, one can imagine how secure it is with those collars...

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4306.msg26837#msg26837
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.msg24546#msg24546
3.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.msg24806#msg24806
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 09:56:39 PM by X1 »

X1

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Two collars Girth hitched bowline-like eyeknot
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 08:22:02 PM »
  The free "Picassa" program has a very interesting tool, named "Pencil Sketh". See how the pictures shown at the previous post can be transformed by it.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 08:23:23 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 08:05:15 PM »
   The white rope : a Girth hitch / Cow hitch double "nipping structure".
   The red rope : a shape "8" Overhand knot double "collar structure".
   
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 08:14:03 PM by X1 »

Ruby

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2013, 03:24:37 AM »
Look like a zeppelin bend

X1

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2013, 09:45:16 AM »
   Looks like a Zeppelin bend

   If you want a Zeppelin-like eyeknot, see :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.msg24546#msg24546
   and the attached pictures.

Ruby

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2013, 03:08:07 PM »
   If you want a Zeppelin ...

Tried both , and I think the cow plus 8 is much more Zeppelin like much more stable much more better.

From back view of the pseudo one can see it's not balanced . Easy to distort

X1

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2013, 04:12:35 PM »
From back view of the pseudo- one can see it's not balanced. Easy to distort

  I have loaded it quite a lot and have not seen any distortion. I had not loaded it to the ultimate strength limit of the rope, though...
  Of course, when it will be heavy loaded, it will lose some of its initial elegance, no question about it - but that does not mean that it would be "distorted", or that it would be less safe.
  There can be no eyeknots that are perfectly symmetric and/or balanced - simply because we have one limb going towards the one direction and two going towards the other - and the standing part, at some point, has to decide if it will turn right or left  :). The Zeppelin knot is an end-to-end knot, a bend, that has two pairs of limbs, so it can be perfectly symmetric, as many other four-limbs knots are.

Ruby

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2013, 02:25:05 PM »
  I have loaded it quite a lot and have not seen any distortion. ...

Ok, you're right. :D  it's actually much stable than what I thought it to be.

How do you tie it? The loose knot is a mess. Take many time to follow it.
If you make it with red and white color like this girth one , I think maybe more clear.

Seems like also a cow hitch plus some back and forth axis?


If a complicate knot can be described as a simple knot plus another simple knot,then it becomes a simple knot, easy to tie and memorize.

X1

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2013, 04:18:40 AM »
How do you tie it?

  With much difficulty !  :)

   
The loose knot is a mess.

  I agree. I have not been able to find a way one can memorize its tying... and a friend of mine, much more versed in knot tying than me, has not either.
it is difficult to remember how to tie, and to tie it quickly...So I am afraid it runs the danger to be characterized as  "Decorative", and get the boot, not the other sandal !  :) ( See the attached first and second picture, respectably )
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 04:20:38 AM by X1 »

Ruby

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Re: Girth-hitched "Eskimo" bowlines
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2013, 01:47:10 PM »
I have not been able to find a way one can memorize its tying...

after a day, I can still  retie it easily as I said above: 
a cow hitch(girth hitch) plus some back and forth axis (just a bight) .

and I think it's much easier than this (girth plus shape 8 overhand)

just don't know how long I can remember this.


hope this is the same knot:
a girth hitch , plus a tucking, form a big hole, then push a bight into that hole, done.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 03:14:33 PM by Ruby »