Author Topic: The Tweedledee bowline  (Read 30341 times)

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »
Quote from: Ruby link=topic=3989.msg2W113#msg28113 date=1371725998
When used as a bend, I'd tie it by first tie a whatknot 1406, and then add a tuck using each tail.

   Roger E. Miles, who discovered this bend, suggests such a tying method, which leads first to the Dee bend ( M. A 10 ), and then, by "inserting free ends symmetrically", to the Tweedledee bend ( M. A  24 ). Personally, I prefer the more intuitive method described in this thread, because it generates, step by step, what this bend really is : those two "8"shaped forms, symmetrically entangled to each other. One does not have to remember anything -  he should only do the only thing he can do to tie it, so it is perfectly symmetric, and the diagonal elements remain iside the knot s nub.
   See the attached pictures for a sequence of moves that leads to the Dee bend.
 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 02:55:49 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 02:48:40 PM »
   Pictures of the Tweedledee bend - for people that do not follow the links I offer... :)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 02:59:58 PM by X1 »

X1

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The Tweedledee bend and loop : What is it, and how to tie ( Stage 3 )
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2013, 09:26:46 PM »
   Stage 3.
 
   Now the knot tyer has made the second line penetrate the first "8"-shaped nipping loop ( i.e, go "under" its "first" bight, "over" its diagonal element, and "under" its second bight ), he has to make it turn left or right, so it will form the first bight of the second "8"-shaped nipping loop, that will be interweaved with the already formed first one. 
   Should he remember if the line should make a left or a right turn ?   
   Nooo ! Because he has just to make the proper turn which will ensure the integrity of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop. That would be obviously a "left" turn, as shown in the picture.   
   
   Remember the "Introduction", before Stage 2 ( Reply #12 ).

..." the second line will...
... wrap the ends and the bights of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop, so that it will not be able to open up when the knot will be loaded."
 
    There is only one turn that can achieve this, the "left" turn, as shown in the picture. No need to remember anything, just understand, and follow the only reasonable / possible way that can ensure the integrity of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop. 
    Now that the line has made a "left" turn, and has wrapped the one end ( of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop ) with the one leg of its one bight, it has to complete the turn, "close" the first new bight, and cross the diagonal element, in order to form the second new bight.       
    Here, too, the previously stated simple rules will deternine the only possible way this can be done : Because the knot tyer has not, in this point, too, to remember the exact path of the second line. It suffices to draw the line in the only way the diagonal element of the first, already formed "8"-shaped nipping structure will remain in the inner core of the knot  -  every other line has to go "over" it. Therefore, the line should cross the diagonal element going "over" it. Also, it suffices to draw the line in the only way the diagonal element of the second, now forming "8" shaped collar structure will also remain in the inner core of the knot. Therefore, the line should cross itself going "under" it.   
   As said again in the instructions describing the previous Stage :
   
    Anything we are going to do from now on, it has to be done in such a way that will leave the two straight parallel and adjacent lines of both "8" shaped forms at the outer core of the knot, "over" the two diagonal elements. On the contrary, the diagonal elements, both of them, have to remain "under" the pairs of the adjacent parallel lines. 
    If one looks at the finished knot, he will not be able to distinguish the two diagonal elements, that will remain at the inner core, buried inside the knot s nub.   So... anything one does should be done in a such way that will not lead to a knot where one or both the diagonal elements of the two "8"-shaped forms would be visible.
   
   Therefore, all the knot tyer has to do, is to draw the line so that :

1.   It will pass "over" the diagonal element of the first "8" shaped (nipping) structure - so that this diagonal element would always remain in the inner core of the knot s nub.
2.   It will wrap the leg of the bight and the end of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop together.
3.   It will pass "under" the diagonal element of the second "8" shaped (collar) structure - so that both diagonal elements, of both "8" shaped structures, the one of the nipping structure and the other of the collar structure, would always remain in the inner core of the knot s nub.
 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:45:12 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2013, 06:16:31 PM »
  Stage 4.

  At this stage, the knot tyer can be helped by the symmetry of the already tied part of the second "8"-shaped nipping loop. Or, he can follow the same reasoning that had helped him proceed till now : He should drive the working end to make a right turn, in order to accomplish two things :

  1. to encircle, and wrap together the first end and the second bight of the  "8"-shaped nipping loop together, and to drive the working end so it becomes parallel and adjacent to this first end.
  2. to encircle and wrap the first end of the  "8" shaped nipping loop it belongs, too, in order to be entangled with it, too - as it happens with the bights all over the knot s nub : they encircle and wrap together the two pairs of any parallel and adjacent ends meet in their way !

   Important note : This is the only time  the working end has to encircle three segments at one stroke : the two segments of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop, and the first end of the second "8"-shaped nipping loop that had been formed during the last 3 Stages. I have to mention this, because it is a point where the inexperienced to tie the Teedledee bend or loop knot tyer runs the danger to make a mistake... I, too, had made this mistake many times, when I was tying this knot at the beginning, because I was fooled by what I had to do right after this move : to drive the working end of this second double nipping loop in a position it will become parallel and adjacent to the first end, so then, just by retracing this first end, to drive the working end out of the knot s nub. Yes, one should do this, but he should not be too quick : he first has to complete the formation of the second bight of the second nipping loop, that encircles its own end, and, to do this, he has to encircle all the three segments he will meet in his way.
    I believe I should not repeat that, right after this move, this working end has to go "over" the diagonal element, as all the parallel and adjacent segments of this knot do...Then, it should go "under" the bight of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop, and get the hell out of the knot s nub !  :)  Attention : I said :  "under" the bight of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop", NOT "under everything"  !  :)  If, at this point, the working end goes under everything, i.e. under both bights, of both nipping loops, the knot would be tied wrongly. It will not make any difference regarding the overall security of the knot, but it will deform its nice, symmetric shape, which helps us inspect if we made any mistakes during tying, at a glance.

   I know that the my ability to describe a sequence of moves in a language I have only an inadequate, very rudimental knowledge and experience of is very limited, and this fact, added to the fundamental difficulty of any language to describe the curvilinear, convoluted paths of the segments of knots in 3D space, does not help at all !  :)  To the brave interested reader that has read all those four verbal descriptions of the four Stages / pictures, I say one thing : Tying this ultra-symmetric knot ( Roger E. Miles calls it "triple symmetric" , for reasons I can not explain here ) is MUCH MUCH easier than it sounds ! The greater help is offered by the symmetry itself : whenever we make a however small mistake, make a wrong turn or tuck, the end result would be awfully distorted, so we will notice that something went wrong at once, during the inspection of the knot. The mistakes that can not distort the final image very much, can not influence the security of this knot at all ! I had deliberately tied all the possible knots, doing all the possible mistakes one can do, if he follows the sequence of moves I describe. One end up either with an ugly tugly, which bears no relation with this beautiful knot whatsoever, or with a slightly different knot, that it is as secure as the one he should had tied. If one or both parallel and adjacent segments do not occupy the correct positions, and the knot looks like the more simple form of the Tweedledee bend or loop shown at the attached pictures, the overall security is not jeopardised : I prefer the more compact, tighter form I describe in this thread, but the simpler forms are also OK, and also extremely secure !
   
   My message is simple and clear : If one understands what this knot really is, its structure, the way it achieves the interlocking of the two "8" shaped double nipping loops ( leaving the diagonal elements deep inside the knot s nub ), he will never have any problems with its tying. He should not remember things, he should only follow the only reasonable and possible path that can lead to tie it.
   
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 06:28:21 PM by X1 »

Ruby

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2013, 07:49:17 AM »
wow , you write so many many sentences ...

someone says that a pic is more than one thousand words ...
maybe you've wrote more than thousand words ... ;D


anyway, perfect knot.  for bend. for loop.  and , for webbing, too.

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2013, 09:40:31 AM »
   maybe you've wrote more than a thousand words ... ;D
  2440, to be precise !  :)
  The four ( 4 ) pictures shown at Reply # 6, (1), were more than enough, I know... I will be so glad if somebody will manage to say the same things in just a few words ! The interested reader is kindly requested to try his/her hand - and then I will be free to proceed and draw what I am really interested in : a 3D PDF file image of this knot, which one can rotate, translate, zoom and expand  to whatever angle, distance, scale and volume he/she wishes...
 
 1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3989.msg27204#msg27204
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:41:31 AM by X1 »

X1

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The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 12:27:44 AM »
   The TweedleDee bend, shown by Roger E. Miles ( and the eye-knot which corresponds to it ) is, in fact, a very simple knot - just two "8" forms, interwoven to each other in the most reasonable, symmetric and simple way. The four bights have to encircle the pairs of the parallel segments of each link.   
   See the attached pictures, for a sequence of moves to tie it. The pictures shown, and the brief verbal instructions below, can be used as a very simple guide : 
   
   First picture / stage:   
   Form an 8-shaped, diagonally opposed double nipping loop on the Standing Part of the eye-knot, where the straight segments of the Standing Part and the working end lay parallel against each other.   
   The purpose of the whole tying sequence is to weave an identical second 8-shaped double nipping loop, formed on the second line, within and around this first one. It should be of exactly the same shape as the shape of the 8-shaped double nipping loop formed on the Standing Part.   
   
   Second picture / stage :   
   Pass the working end through the "8", as shown in the first picture.   
 
   Third picture / stage :   
   Crossing under the working part, directly over the parallel segments of the first "8".   
 
    Fourth picture / stage :   
   At this point, take the working end around the second "8" shape and around the working part, to come through the second nipping loop - running against itself, as it exits through the first nipping loop. 
 ( Notice that, between stage 2 and stage 3, the working end encircles two segments, of the first "8", while between stage 3 and stage 4 it encircles three segments : two segments of the first "8", AND the working part of the second "8". So here, the knot tyer, repeating what he did between stage 2 and stage 3, he may make the mistake to pass the working end around the two segments of the first "8" only, but to forget to also pass it around the working part of the second "8". )
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 12:37:44 AM by X1 »

alpineer

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 10:38:25 PM »
The Tweedledee is an inside-out transformation of the most beautiful, compact and symmetrical knot, the 2-strand 2-fold Matthew Walker Knot. I stumbled upon the Tweedledee (c.1997-'99) while searching for good alternative harness tie-in knots. I'm not sure if I'd seen it (the Tweedledee) in Roger E. Miles book by then or not.

I too use the tying method you've shown. True, I don't find it difficult to remember, but being somewhat awkward and time consuming to tie I find it lacks good hand and brain ergonomics. Sure, it's easy to tie while relaxing in your living room, but IMO it won't so easily pass muster when one may be suffering mental and physical stress, or worse yet shock, and when one's focus can be distracted by several things simultaneously. These scenarios can and do happen in the natural environment. Harsh criticism? Yes. But the world can be a harsh place with potentially harsh consequences. It's the nature of the endeavor to put such things under a harsh light before a catastrophic event happens.     

The Tweedledee is not TIB and for that reason it's a bit of a one trick pony at best.

I don't classify this knot as a Bowline. Is every knot that's PET knot now a Bowline?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 10:49:32 PM by alpineer »

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 11:31:46 PM »
True, I don't find it difficult to remember, but being somewhat awkward and time consuming to tie

   It is amazing how much of this time is reduced after one tie it, say, 100 times. One has only to spend a few hours tying it again and again, and then it comes very easy and fast, indeed. I believe that a few hours of training, even a few days of training, are not such a long time for a serious climber or rescue worker.

   IMO it won't so easily pass muster when one may be suffering mental and physical stress, or worse yet shock, and when one's focus can be distracted by several things simultaneously. These scenarios can and do happen in the natural environment.
   the world can be a harsh place with potentially harsh consequences. It's the nature of the endeavour to put such things under a harsh light before a catastrophic event happens.   
   
   All very true. I can not say anything about tying it under such circumstances - on top of raining, snowing, freezing, waves, moving objects, dark, fatigue, danger, people around suffering, you name it...The Fig.8 knot can be tied almost blindly, by a fraction of one s brain cells devoted on this action.

The Tweedledee is not TIB and for that reason it's a bit of a one trick pony at best.

   I would love to have a PET + TIB secure eyeknot, with a double nipping turn and a double bight component / collar.
   However, I wish a few mooore things  :) : I am convinced that it is better, re. strength, if the nipping turns encircle three rope diameters - and if the eyeknot can remain functional, even in the absence/cut, by accident or by mistake, of one or even two collars.
   The Luca s bowline , with a double collar in the shape of a fig.8 knot, is TIB, but its nipping turn encircles two only rope diameters, and its grip on the fig.8 collar is not optimum.
  The bowline with the Lehman s lock is TIB, too, but it has only one collar. The pet loop I had presented, and its 3 siblings, seem too fragile to be used as secure bowlines. You can possibly test the double collar TIB bowline based on the Jug sling, or Mike s fancy bend, called "coming and going" bowline, shown at :

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4336
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh3-uC94aA

 
   I don't classify this knot as a Bowline. Is every knot that's PET knot now a Bowline?
 
    To my view, if it is PET AND it has collar(s), it is a bowline...The Tweedledee eyeknot is PET, AND it has collars, plenty of them   :)  - four, two for each eye leg ! The epitome of a double/double bowline !  :)  However, let us not play this name game too much...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:38:06 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2013, 09:58:36 AM »
The Tweedledee is not TIB and for that reason it's a bit of a one trick pony at best.
Reading :
the Tresse feature makes a TIB Bowline which renders the two eyes virtually independent of each other -
 ...an alternative to the Double Bowline on a Bight or the Fusion Knot aka Karash Double Loop.
   I thought that you might have meant the same thing in your comment about the Tweedledee bowline - that it can not be used as a basis for a Double TIB bowline...( Double, here, means : two eyes )
   If that is so, I have to say that the "inability" (or "ability") to do this can not turn such a fine horse into a trick pony... :)  ( a "tricky pony, at best" (sic) ! )
    Nor it turns the Tresse bowline frog into a prince !
    I am kidding, of course... :)  The Tresse bowline is a fine bowline, very stable and secure - my problem with it was/is the same I have with all double nipping turn but single bight component (collar) bowlines : The one element of those bowlines is sophisticated, while the other remains naive... For a secure bowline, able to withstand the material and psychological conditions you describe, I believe we need a double nipping turn + double bight component bowline - like the one shown at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4321.msg27020#msg27020
   
   We have dozens of most secure double TIB bowlines...many more than we need ! It is the most easy knot to create - in fact, it seems that every time one sits for some time and try, he can create another one, that probably would be new ! Ashley explicitly says the same thing, and the number of double TIB bowlines he presents in the ABoK chapter on double loops (12) is the largest of all other types of knots, by far ! If you wish to travel to the Double TIB boelinedom, I have to inform you that you are already there !  :)  Myself I will not spend another minute of my remaining life in this type of knots. and I do not care, and I do not even examine if a particular bowline can be turned into a double TIB bowline, or not !
   On the other hand, a TIB bowline is a most welcomed thing ! My answer was addressing the question of a TIB bowline, not of a double/twin eyed TIB bowline ! If you find a new TIB bowline, I will be here waiting for you, with open arms !  :)
 
   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 02:09:27 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2013, 11:12:31 AM »
for the 4 steps, I think the first step is most important.
I think that the first step is known to most knot tyers, because that is the way they tie the Constructor.
To me, the tricky part, where one can make a mistake, is, most probably, the last one : Although it is sooo boring, and it consumes a lot of the bits and bytes of this Forum, perhaps without reason, and is such a wordy mess, I will repeat it :
Important note : This is the only time  the working end has to encircle three segments at one stroke : the two segments of the first "8"-shaped nipping loop, and the first end of the second "8"-shaped nipping loop that had been formed during the last 3 Stages. I have to mention this, because it is a point where the inexperienced to tie the Teedledee bend or loop knot tyer runs the danger to make a mistake... I, too, had made this mistake many times, when I was tying this knot at the beginning, because I was fooled by what I had to do right after this move : to drive the working end of this second double nipping loop in a position it will become parallel and adjacent to the first end, so then, just by retracing this first end, to drive the working end out of the knot s nub. Yes, one should do this, but he should not be too quick : he first has to complete the formation of the second bight of the second nipping loop, that encircles its own end, and, to do this, he has to encircle all the three segments he will meet in his way.
 
AND, I will repeat it again ! :
   Notice that, between stage 2 and stage 3, the working end encircles two segments, of the first "8", while between stage 3 and stage 4 it encircles three segments : two segments of the first "8", AND the working part of the second "8". So here, the knot tyer, repeating what he did between stage 2 and stage 3, he may make the mistake to pass the working end around the two segments of the first "8" only, but to forget to also pass it around the working part of the second "8".

 

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2013, 12:22:12 PM »
    Every knot tyer ties the same knots with a different methods.
    See how I arrive at stage 1 :

A. Form an S.
B. Push the two legs of this S towards each other / towards the centre.
C. Now they are parallel and adjacent to each other. ( In the B&W picture, I leave a little room between them, so one clearly sees them as a pair, and not as one thick rope !  :) )
4. Flip the whole thing / place it upside down.
   Of course, one can do the same thing, pushing the legs "under" the diagonal element, not "over" as shown here, so he will no have to flip the knot at the end. However, personally I prefer the method shown, because it offers me a better control / handling of the whole knot - and, to arrive at the picture shown as stage 1, it starts with a normal S, not with its mirror image !  :)
   
   Piece of cake - but there might well be another, simpler yet method I am not aware of.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 01:22:01 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 02:26:44 PM »
when you get to the 3rd step, acturally the loose knot is a mess,
since in fact it's a rope of a single color, not two distinct color like showed in picture.
   When possible, I always prefer to use a tying method where the parts of the knot, as they are formed, are placed in the same - or nearly the same - position inside the knot s nub, in relation to the position they will occupy in the final, dressed and tightened knot.
   Believe it or not, I keep the "8" shape of the first link as it is shown in the pictures, and I do not see any problem in weaving the second "8" within and around it - because those two symmetric, "closed", nice forms, although they have the same colour !  :) , in my eyes they always remain two completely separated, individual objects. I do not see any mess, because my eyes, helped by the symmetry, are perceiving the ordered "superposition" of those two individual links, and not their tangled sum.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 02:29:30 PM by X1 »

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 02:47:40 PM »
well, seeing these 4 steps to get the stage 1 ,
I can't help but thinking that it's so complicated ... :D
It may seem so, but, conceptually, it is not !
Read my previous reply. The image of the whole thing remains as close to the image of the final dressed and tightened knot as possible

X1

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Re: The Tweedledee bowline
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 02:53:03 PM »
the working end should be threaded through this double loop twice, easily , even without looking at the rope.
Perhaps you can make a video of your method ? Or show it in a series of MANY pictures, step by step, because I believe you have jumped over some steps in your verbal description.