Author Topic: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?  (Read 25636 times)

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2012, 05:30:38 PM »
I have a feeling sometimes people just post a knot here without much experience using the knot. It's difficult to imagine why anybody here would recommend a Guyline Hitch or a Trucker Hitch with Slipped Overhand. At least there should be a note about the tendency to jam, when there are so many other hitches that work perfectly fine while being easy to untie.

...Maybe I'm just irritated because I still can't untie the Overhand knot in my Guyline Hitch.  :-\

The OP asked for a substitute for a plastic tie which tightens and locks when the end is pulled - there was no mention of trying to untie the whole thing later (unfastening a zip tie is at best fiddly and sometimes all but impossible). I have used the guyline hitch and left it on the cord for re-use rather than untie it  - it was on each of 4 guylines on a child's tent which had none to start with but kept blowing around when unoccupied). Leaving tied is not really an option with the TH and I agree the slipped overhand is a bad idea in that case. It does depend on how much force is applied of course - using this in paracord I found it easy enough to slacken off but I don't think I'd use it if I had to untie it every time (but then again I wouldn't untie a tautline either in the circumstances).

Barry

I'm not sure how you're tying your Trucker, but I would be able to leave it in the line if I wanted. Actually, with a Trucker, there seem to be more options. I can leave tied (1) everything, (2) everything but the first anchor, (3) just the Span Loop, or (4) nothing. If I decide I want to leave everything tied, I can remove the rope from the stake by loosening the Trucker Hitch a bit if necessary, or I can leave the stake attached to the Trucker and remove the stake from the ground.

So, the Guyline is not unique in that regard. Based on my observations, the distinguishing features of a Guyline are (1) it's relatively easy to remember compared to other hitches mentioned here, (2) it's simpler than a Trucker, and (3) it's potentially difficult to untie. These features may be desirable depending on the application and the skill of the person. By the way, whenever there is a tendency to jam, it should always be noted and should never be assumed as common knowledge.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 07:41:42 PM by knot4u »

Rich Shewmaker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2012, 06:08:50 PM »
While it will slip, unlike a Zip-tie, the butcher's knot (ABOK 183) serves a similar purpose. It tightens like a Zip-tie, and holds long enough to secure it with a half hitch. With practice it can be tied quickly.

Rich Shewmaker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2012, 10:25:35 PM »
A Zip-tie is used for binding. They often bind wires and cables as in automotive wiring harnesses. They are also popular in law enforcement as back-up handcuffs, again a binding application. That is why I suggested the butcher's knot in my other reply.  The Packer's knot (ABOK 409) is similar to the butcher's knot, but the tautline hitch, guyline hitch, and trucker's hitches are very different and would not serve in place of a Zip-tie.

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2012, 11:04:57 PM »
A Zip-tie is used for binding. They often bind wires and cables as in automotive wiring harnesses. They are also popular in law enforcement as back-up handcuffs, again a binding application. That is why I suggested the butcher's knot in my other reply.  The Packer's knot (ABOK 409) is similar to the butcher's knot, but the tautline hitch, guyline hitch, and trucker's hitches are very different and would not serve in place of a Zip-tie.

Not so fast, before you add the Half Hitch at the end, the Butcher and the Packer are quite similar in function to the Tautline (or Rolling) and the Guyline. You can easily add the Half Hitch after you're done adjusting a Tautline (or Rolling). In fact, before you add that additional Half Hitch, the Tautline (or Rolling) outperforms the Butcher and the Packer in zip-tie behavior.

The Versatackle and the Trucker are in a different class and outperform those hitches in the areas of tensioning and security. Yeah, the original poster asked about a knot that resembles a zip-tie, but the poster is also a novice to practical knots. It's our job to discuss other options that the poster may not even be imagining.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 11:08:13 PM by knot4u »

asemery

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2012, 06:25:22 PM »
The Canadian Jam Knot might be a candidate.  Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2012, 07:48:17 PM »
The Canadian Jam Knot might be a candidate.  Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU

Well, the guy does worn about jamming. If the user doesn't care, then that looks pretty good.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2012, 09:49:04 PM »
The Canadian Jam Knot might be a candidate.  Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU

Well, the guy does warn about jamming. If the user doesn't care, then that looks pretty good.

He also says what jams & why, and the user might endeavor
to redress that issue by making the first-tied overhand
something resistant to jamming --after all, that knot is purely
working qua stopper knotp in sustaining the 2nd overhand.


--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2012, 11:42:31 PM »
For those who want more info about this knot from Google, Canadian Jam Knot = Arbor Knot.

EDIT: I'm not so thrilled with this knot. I did some testing in boot laces around pillows, it didn't hold securely where other knots did (e.g., Blake, Tautline/Rolling). That was predictable. The performance of the Arbor Knot depends on the overhand clinching down on the standing end. There's not a whole lot of contact area for that clinching, compared to other friction knots. Maybe it works better in 550 paracord, or maybe it attaching a fishing line to a reel. Who knows? Anyway, I'm not too motivated to do more testing.

Further, although the Arbor Knot is relatively easy to tie and remember, the mechanism of this knot is more complex compared than simpler friction knots. In other words, the Arbor Knot involves a loosely tied overhand making its way up the rope to a stopper knot and then clinching down on the standing end. In contrast, a simpler friction knot (e.g., Blake, Tautline/Rolling) merely involves coils clinching down on the standing end.

In sum, the Arbor Knot offers less security, a more complex mechanism, and an untying process that is more fiddly.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 11:08:47 PM by knot4u »

Luca

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2012, 02:37:38 PM »
Hi

A method I have tried,in attempt to get a meeting point between what is shown in the video linked by asemery and what written by knot4u:
make a loop like this:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html

performs all exactly as in the left image, but in order to obtain a large loop, and that, what is the SPart in the figure, becomes the tail(reversed version);
continues to hold the loop so obtained in front of you  in the same position as shown in the image on the left;
now rotate the loop in front of you,so that the tail of the loop (the one you just went through the figure of eight) points toward you(quarter-turn counterclockwise looking from above);
pass the object through the loop held in this position;
adhere the loop around the object by pulling its tail in a relatively mild manner(during this step is not necessary that the figure of eight is tight);
Now pull the tail of the loop (which still points to you) with energy, in the opposite direction (see at this point that the figure of 8 tightens and capsizes),until tighten around the object as desired;
If necessary, run a pull too on the other tail,to fix everything well.
In doing so, I think he can quite easily tightening the object  by only pulling this tail, more or less as shown in the video, and that should be quite easy to untie the knot, as is usually the way to being untied the gripping hitches(more or less).
If it is not clear let me know! I'll try to explain myself better, and it remains obvious that I'm curious to know what the limits and flaws of the proposed here.

                                                                                                      Bye!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 03:09:52 PM by Luca »

asemery

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2012, 03:40:17 PM »

He also says what jams & why, and the user might endeavor
to redress that issue by making the first-tied overhand
something resistant to jamming --after all, that knot is purely
working qua stopper knotp in sustaining the 2nd overhand.


--dl*
====
The figure eight knot works as a stopper and is not as prone to jamming.  Tony

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2012, 10:08:13 PM »
Hi

A method I have tried,in attempt to get a meeting point between what is shown in the video linked by asemery and what written by knot4u:
make a loop like this:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html

performs all exactly as in the left image, but in order to obtain a large loop, and that, what is the SPart in the figure, becomes the tail(reversed version);
continues to hold the loop so obtained in front of you  in the same position as shown in the image on the left;
now rotate the loop in front of you,so that the tail of the loop (the one you just went through the figure of eight) points toward you(quarter-turn counterclockwise looking from above);
pass the object through the loop held in this position;
adhere the loop around the object by pulling its tail in a relatively mild manner(during this step is not necessary that the figure of eight is tight);
Now pull the tail of the loop (which still points to you) with energy, in the opposite direction (see at this point that the figure of 8 tightens and capsizes),until tighten around the object as desired;
If necessary, run a pull too on the other tail,to fix everything well.
In doing so, I think he can quite easily tightening the object  by only pulling this tail, more or less as shown in the video, and that should be quite easy to untie the knot, as is usually the way to being untied the gripping hitches(more or less).
If it is not clear let me know! I'll try to explain myself better, and it remains obvious that I'm curious to know what the limits and flaws of the proposed here.

                                                                                                      Bye!

Is your word description the same as the pic? If not, I can't follow word instructions for knots. I need a pic.

Luca

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2012, 12:10:47 AM »
Hi knot4u,

My word description is the same as the picture on the left in the page linked in my post.(I do not know why I had this idea to propose to rotate the loop, perhaps because it was the way I performed this method).
Simply make the loop and pass its tail through the figure of eight knot as in this picture,but as I described earlier( reversed version in respect to the picture).
The tail of the loop(the arrow in the picture)points to left(ever in the picture);
put the object through the loop, take this tail and pull it towards the right in the picture.
Unfortunately I do not have the ability to add photos.

                                                                                                   Bye!

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2012, 02:44:16 AM »
Hi knot4u,

My word description is the same as the picture on the left in the page linked in my post.(I do not know why I had this idea to propose to rotate the loop, perhaps because it was the way I performed this method).
Simply make the loop and pass its tail through the figure of eight knot as in this picture,but as I described earlier( reversed version in respect to the picture).
The tail of the loop(the arrow in the picture)points to left(ever in the picture);
put the object through the loop, take this tail and pull it towards the right in the picture.
Unfortunately I do not have the ability to add photos.

                                                                                                   Bye!

You say it's the same as the pic, and then you continue with an explanation. I just cannot follow word explanations. So, if the knot you're describing is the same as the pic, I'll try out the pic (again). Note Roo already posted it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 02:49:29 AM by knot4u »

Luca

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 10:40:32 AM »
Hi knot4u,

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html

(re-put the link for convenience)
Perhaps I made ​​too many rounds of words to describe how to use this same knot as a wrapping binder:
do exactly the same as is done in the left image, but keep in mind to leave the loop large enough to wrap the object;
pass the object to be wrapped through the loop;adhering the loop around the object, take care that the figure of eight continue to be visible to you always as shown in the picture on the left,without it tipping over or turns(however, keep everything in the same position as in the image on the left, this helps to understand with the words);
now you grab the tail of the loop (the arrow pointing left in picture),and you pull  it in the opposite direction(right;the figure of eight capsizes in this moment),until that the object will be fully tightened;if necessary, pull also  the other one tail (the SPart in the left picture) to secure good.
Perhaps this method is not much, but maybe can be an inspiration to perfect it!
If you want, put the link of the post by Roo, because for now I have not found.
                                                                                                     Bye!

 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 10:13:18 AM by Luca »

SaltyCracker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2012, 01:20:55 PM »
The buntline hitch works. See the thread subject: "Subtle Buntline Hitch"
Check out the photo of 1/5/2011.

Like a zip tie, the buntline hitch does not need to be cinched down in order to hold in a horizontal, loop spreading pull. And, you can further lock it down, a la packers hitch style, with the running part half-hitched over the tag end of the knot.

Few people know what the knot's namesake, a buntline, is. Maybe we should start calling the buntline with a "lockdown" half hitch a "Zip Tie Knot". I've not seen this knot in other than the post above. Some of the responders to that thread came up with a way to combine this with a slipped buntline and slipped half hitch to make make the whole slipped.

Note: The classic tautline hitch works great as a guy line tensioner with the loop lines coming out of the knot approximately parallel but does not hold well when pulled in a loop opening manner. The photo mentioned above shows how the buntline holds.

Also, if the buntline doesn't do the job for you, experiment with a backwards tautline hitch and see what you find.

I haven't been on the Igkt in a while. If I figure out how to embed a link I'll send another post.
Allen