Author Topic: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?  (Read 25395 times)


knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2012, 04:09:23 PM »
A Buntline doesn't work properly if the object causes the Buntline to be in mid-air (i.e., where the loop is ring loaded). The Buntline only works where the second Half Hitch is crushed by the first Half Hitch. This cannot happen if the Buntline is tied, for example, around a box and the Buntline is at the middle of a side.

Note: The classic tautline hitch works great as a guy line tensioner with the loop lines coming out of the knot approximately parallel but does not hold well when pulled in a loop opening manner. The photo mentioned above shows how the buntline holds.

Also, if the buntline doesn't do the job for you, experiment with a backwards tautline hitch and see what you find.

Where the knot is in mid-air (i.e., the loop is ring loaded), you're on the right track with the Tautline (or reverse Tautline depending on how you're looking at it). In that situation, I have found a Buntline is exactly the opposite of what I want.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 04:19:59 PM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2012, 05:15:19 PM »
Try it.

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2012, 05:36:40 PM »
Try it.

My explanation didn't work. Let me put this another way: nobody mentioned the Buntline in this thread because it's a no-go.

Hrungnir

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2012, 05:44:25 PM »
Like a zip tie, the buntline hitch does not need to be cinched down in order to hold in a horizontal, loop spreading pull. And, you can further lock it down, a la packers hitch style, with the running part half-hitched over the tag end of the knot.

My explanation didn't work. Let me put this another way: nobody mentioned the Buntline in this thread because it's a no-go.
Really?

The discussion seems to be directed to guyline type systems.  But if the problem is a loop around a package which is *then tightened by pulling on a free end which then remains tight*, then the solution might be a buntline hitch.  I don't think I saw that mentioned.  I guess my question is: what *then remains tight*?  the loop or the standing part?

While it will slip, unlike a Zip-tie, the butcher's knot (ABOK 183) serves a similar purpose. It tightens like a Zip-tie, and holds long enough to secure it with a half hitch. With practice it can be tied quickly.

Corned beef knot or Packers knot. Depends on the problem really.

We are four people which have mentioned the Buntline in this thread, and I must agree with SaltyCracker.

I've often used the Buntline as a mid-air binder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef_knot
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butcherknots.html
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 06:01:13 PM by Hrungnir »

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2012, 06:14:42 PM »
As a mid-air binder, Two Half Hitches easily outperforms a Buntline, and they are basically opposites. Further, there are better options than Two Half Hitches that are discussed in this thread. I don't consider the Buntline to be a mid-air binder, not even remotely. Apparently, your mileage varies drastically.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 06:34:53 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2012, 07:23:31 PM »
I've often used the Buntline as a mid-air binder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef_knot
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butcherknots.html

That's rather confusing. We're talking about a Buntline, and you throw up two knots that happen to have Half Hitches somewhere in there. To prevent confusion, let's agree there is one way to tie a Buntline, specfically, ABOK #1711. When I say Buntline, I mean just that, not a similar touchy-feely variation thereof.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:56:11 PM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2012, 07:28:11 PM »
Try again. Try a comparison. Make a loop with two half hitches in a piece of small line, say 1/8". Put your hands inside of the loop then pull. The knot will slip readily. Now try the same with a buntline hitch forming the loop. The knot may slip a bit initially but will dog down and significantly resist your attempt to open the loop. Sure, if you pull with full strength it may slip, but then, that's what the half hitch is for.

Go back to that 2010/2011 thread "Subtle Buntline Hitch". The last several entries in that thread show photos of the buntline hitch loop and the way to do the test.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2649.msg15922#msg15922

If the buntline doesn't do it for you, try a backwards or upside down tautline hitch. I.e. take two turns with your initial wrap around the standing part before coming inside the loop with the final half hitch. That knot will hold!



knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2012, 07:39:12 PM »
Try again. Try a comparison. Make a loop with two half hitches in a piece of small line, say 1/8". Put your hands inside of the loop then pull. The knot will slip readily. Now try the same with a buntline hitch forming the loop. The knot may slip a bit initially but will dog down and significantly resist your attempt to open the loop. Sure, if you pull with full strength it may slip, but then, that's what the half hitch is for.

Go back to that 2010/2011 thread "Subtle Buntline Hitch". The last several entries in that thread show photos of the buntline hitch loop and the way to do the test.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2649.msg15922#msg15922

If the buntline doesn't do it for you, try a backwards or upside down tautline hitch. I.e. take two turns with your initial wrap around the standing part before coming inside the loop with the final half hitch. That knot will hold!

I have tried several times with many types of cord. What I said above still stands.

I prefer to test knots in real applications, not simulations. As one of many applications, I tied a Buntline around a clipboard, where the Buntline was suspended on a flat side. I could not obtain tension easily. In contrast, Two Half Hitches, a Tautline, and a Gleipnir allowed me to generate tension easily. Not only would a Buntline NOT work well as a mid-air binder in any application I have ever had, but I can simply look at a Buntline and tell it would not work.

I have tried variations of all the knots in this thread, including a Buntline. A Buntline is not even remotely on my list of mid-air binders. I'm surprised I'm even having this disagreement with anybody on this site. This topic is near-and-dear to my heart because a mid-air binder is the type of knot I use most.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:35:44 PM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2012, 08:40:07 PM »
The one-way nature of the buntline was not obvious to me at first. Perhaps some of you will find the simple buntline or the backwards/upside down tautline (never seen it published so don't know what to call it) useful. Both work much like a zip tie. You need to hold the knot as you pull it tight but it makes for a simple, an effective substitute for a zip tie.

A zip tie is not used to suspend the article around which it is tied and it provides little, if any, mechanical advantage. As Rich Shewmaker pointed out in one of the posts, a zip tie is typically used for such things as securing wiring and cables.

Maybe we could call the backwards/upside down tauntline the "Zip Tie" knot?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:44:15 PM by SaltyCracker »

knot4u

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2012, 08:57:32 PM »
The one-way nature of the buntline was not obvious to me at first. Perhaps some of you will find the simple buntline or the backwards/upside down tautline (never seen it published so don't know what to call it) useful. Both work much like a zip tie. You need to hold the knot as you pull it tight but it makes for a simple, an effective substitute for a zip tie.

A zip tie is not used to suspend the article around which it is tied and it provides little, if any, mechanical advantage. As Rich Shewmaker pointed out in one of the posts, a zip tie is typically used for such things as securing wiring and cables.

Maybe we could call the backwards/upside down tauntline the "Zip Tie" knot?

As a mid-air binder, have you even tried Two Half Hitches (the opposite of a Buntline)?

With Two Half Hitches, unlike the Buntline, you don't hold the knot and slide. Rather, you pull the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. With tension in mid-air, the first tied Half Half Hitch cinches down on the second tied Half Hitch at the working end. You can really crank down on the tension, way harder than what you can achieve by pinching and sliding a Buntline. The amount of tension you can achieve with Two Half Hitches is not even close. Further, there are even better options than Two Half Hitches.

Also, as a mid-air binder, I'm technically tying a regular Tautline (not a reverse Tautline). It's the forces that are reversed. Like the Two Half Hitches, I can really crank down on the tension by pulling the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. Again, the last tied Half Hitch gets cinched down by the tension and the initially tied coils of the Tautline.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:03:51 PM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2012, 09:02:06 PM »
By the way, I don't teach the buntline hitch to Scouts or... at least not young Scouts or children. I feel it, like the constrictor, strangle, and similar knots, to be more dangerous than most because of its one-way nature. You can't reach inside of the loop and open it up easily.

And, along with other points about rope safety, I always start out knot tying sessions with a caution to never put a rope or line around their necks or that of their friends, pets, etc.
 



« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:18:10 AM by SaltyCracker »

SaltyCracker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2012, 09:29:44 PM »

As a mid-air binder, have you even tried Two Half Hitches (the opposite of a Buntline)?

With Two Half Hitches, unlike the Buntline, you don't hold the knot and slide. Rather, you pull the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. With tension in mid-air, the first tied Half Half Hitch cinches down on the second tied Half Hitch at the working end. You can really crank down on the tension, way harder than what you can achieve by pinching and sliding a Buntline. The amount of tension you can achieve with Two Half Hitches is not even close. Further, there are even better options than Two Half Hitches.

Also, as a mid-air binder, I'm technically tying a regular Tautline (not a reverse Tautline). It's the forces that are reversed. Like the Two Half Hitches, I can really crank down on the tension by pulling the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. Again, the last tied Half Hitch gets cinched down by the tension and the initially tied coils of the Tautline.

I've tried and use two half hitches. Difference is that the buntline provides the one way, ratchet-type effect of a zip tie. It's simple and it works.

I use two half-hitches regularly. However, when I have a zip-tie type application I go with the buntline. Both can be "locked" down with a half hitch, butcher/packer's knot style, but the buntline works well enough most times without giving up the gain and without the lock-down hitch.

I suggest that instead of the two of us continuing to go back & forth on this I plan let it go. We're probably boring the other posters.

Thank you for your input.

P.S. Guess I didn't look hard enough. Ashley's, #1994 (+ #1727 & #2073 added 2012SEP15) shows what I've been calling the backwards/upside down taunt line hitch as "An Adjustable Jam Hitch". So I guess we can't call it the Zip Tie knot... but Zip Tie has a better ring to it!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 11:29:23 AM by SaltyCracker »

SaltyCracker

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2012, 12:09:56 AM »

We are four people which have mentioned the Buntline in this thread, and I must agree with SaltyCracker.

I've often used the Buntline as a mid-air binder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef_knot
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butcherknots.html

Hrungnir,
The buntline in the corned beef knot is used to make a noose by tying it around the bight. That noose then goes around the "object".

I'm suggesting that the buntline be tied around the object, using its one way, ratchet nature to adjust as the meat cures and shrinks.

Funny that others referred to the Corned Beef knot. Several years ago I was experimenting with that very knot when I became aware of the one way nature of the buntline. I even wonder if Mr. Ashley's intention was to tie the buntline directly around the object.

His description is a bit contradictory in that he talks about the need to adjust for shrinkage as the meat cures. That plays well to the one way nature of the buntline tied directly around the meat (object). But then he specifically talks about the buntline being tied about the bight (creating a noose that goes around the meat). Then says that it is the best knot for the purpose. Virtually any of the butcher's/packer's knots would work for the kind of adjustment a buntline noose would provide but only the buntline tied directly around the meat would fulfill the "adjust and hold as you go" requirement and finish off with the half hitch when curing complete.

All that said, I greatly appreciate your supporting comment!

« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:12:30 AM by SaltyCracker »

Luca

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Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2012, 11:50:50 PM »
Hi Allen,

I've not seen this knot ...

I thought of proposing the use in "reverse" of this knot illustrated by roo on its website, in the wake of the knot shown in the video linked by Tony(asemery)some posts before,for be understood as an attempt to achieve a compromise between the behavior of the knot in the proposed video, and what subsequently explicated by by knot4u in regard to the greater simplicity of the mechanism and the most facilitates regarding the untying of some friction hitches cited by him.
I must say though, that,experimenting  the use,in this way,of the original HFP Slippery 8 Loop with a rope of small diameter (2.5 mm polyester),that also this knot can jam, and also sometimes is reversed in a unexpectedly way, trapping the tail between the wrapped object and the wrapping loop,making it dramatically difficult to untie(I think I was able to remedy, at least in part, to these defects,by doubling, during the execution of the Figure of Eight,one of the two loops that make it up,and that is,that envelops the Standing Part; by making this amendment, or by running a slipped version of  the original Figure of Eight, thus transforming the final product in a quick release knot,the above problem is not presented more).

The photo mentioned above shows how the buntline holds.

I must say that I agree with this: after reading your post, I too have seen that the Buntline Hitch behaves in much the same way: by the immediate fixed  tightening on the object with a single pull,and by leaving the possibility to re-enlarge the loop by pulling on the other end of the rope, a little bit as with the Canadian-Arbor knot shown in the video from Youtube.but even in the case of the use of Buntline Hitch, there remains the problem that the knot can tighten too, preventing the fact that the realease mechanism, which in fact in my opinion still inside it contains, can remain practicable!

                                                                                     Bye!