Author Topic: Some Kind of Loop Knot  (Read 6331 times)

psycotica0

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Some Kind of Loop Knot
« on: June 03, 2012, 06:35:38 AM »
Hello.
I was playing with rope earlier today and came across this construction.
I don't know a lot of knots, but it wasn't one I recognized, nor could I find it in a list.

It might be one you all know, though, which is why I'm here.
It turns out it's kind of hard to search for knots without using People.

I saw in the "Before you post" that if I were just looking to identify a knot that I should put it in practical, but I don't know if this is a practical knot... so I've put it here.
You may feel free to relocate this if I've done wrong.

So, rather that discuss it here, I've thrown the images up on my server.
I've put it at http://psycoti.ca/knot

I saw a few that were similar, but none that had the feature that neither end is connected to the loop in a straight line.
They all bend around something.
Probably weakens the heck out of the rope, but I don't really know much about any of that.

So! Have I come across an existing knot, or has someone never come up with this one somehow?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 03:55:24 AM »
Hello, psycotica0,
yes, something like what you present was published in the
IGKT's newletter Knotting Matters quite some time ago.
It's a handy way to put in a bowline-like eyeknot without
using the ends, and of having a quick-release for untying.


--dl*
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squarerigger

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 06:34:58 AM »
dl - which issue of KM?  As to its bowline-like appearance to you - which piece?  Do you have any sketches or photos of this?

SR

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 05:50:45 AM »
> which KM?

Although "48" came to mind, as SOMEthing,
the correct citation is km68:47 --nice & concise!   :)
(Note how lowercase alpha contrasts with effectively
uppercase stature numeric, for clarity --colon separator.)

The bowline aspect should be obvious in the OP's images
--the central nipping loop.  What I'd prefer is that the nipped
bight be a "loop" instead, which is what is presented op cit.
(And there are some good other bowlinesque such TIB eyeknots,
quite handy for some quick tasks, and maybe some with promise
on the test device.)

--dl*
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Sweeney

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 07:41:14 AM »
And here is the drawing from km68 submitted by a Norwegian member who saw it on a ferry in 2000.

Barry
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 10:42:38 AM by Sweeney »

psycotica0

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2012, 02:25:32 PM »
Yeah... I guess there is a bowline-ness to it.
The way I was typing it, and looking at it, I didn't really notice.
Obviously it's not the same as one, though.

As for that last knot, that one is almost identical to mine.
The only difference seems to be that it goes... "down through" the loop at the beginning, whereas mine goes "up through" it.

So, perhaps something like it has come up before, but I'm still glad it wasn't a quick "That's a ___ knot. ABOK #___" or something.
I wouldn't have been able to find it on my own, probably.

Thanks!

DerekSmith

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2012, 08:34:52 PM »
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but this knot is unstable when ring loaded on the end leg of the loop.  The SP pulls through with an alarming degree of positive cogging due to the fact that the Single turn Component (StC) is maintained inline with the SP loading.

When the Bowline is ring loaded on the end loop leg, the StC rotates into a Hitch Component, very effectively locking the nipping loop in place and around the legs of the Bight Component.

Although this knot has the StC, it does not have a bight collar, instead its collar is formed by a part of a Carrick Component, so I would not define this knot as either a bowline or a bowline variant.

Of interest, when this knot is loaded on the end - i.e. tie it so the end becomes the SP, then it becomes a Carrick Component stabilised by a Hitch Component and it is rock solid stable.  Because it is formed around the Carrick Component, it retains ease of untying, beloved of the Bowline, but of course it is still neither a bowline nor a variant.

I understand this alternate form of the OP knot is not well thought of, but in my experience, it is easy to tie and untie and is wonderfully stable, and of course, the SP entering a Carrick Component, it should also be strong.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2012, 06:44:31 AM »
... ring loaded on the end leg of the loop ...

What?  "ring-loaded" is a term I understand;
it needs no qualification that I'm aware of;
so what is "on the end leg of the loop" doing?


 :)

ps:  "derecho" is now a word I newly understand!

DerekSmith

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 07:43:09 AM »
Hi Dan,

Then I am using the wrong term - what term should I be using to describe a load focused onto one leg of the loop, i.e. when the loop gets pinned under another mooring, and then the load angle shifts placing all of the load onto just one leg?

Have you been hit by a derecho then?

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2012, 06:13:49 AM »
Hi Dan,

Then I am using the wrong term - what term should I be using to describe a load focused onto one leg of the loop, i.e. when the loop gets pinned under another mooring, and then the load angle shifts placing all of the load onto just one leg?

Ring loading is when the eye of the eyeknot is loaded
as though a round sling, and the knot then becomes an
end-2-end joint.  (Conceivably, one might have a situation
in which some 3-ends loading occurred, at various proportions.)

I have once thought to give the names "through loading"
and "bend loading" to the SPart-side, resp. tail-side isolated
loading that you wish to denote; but I am now sending "bend"
back to its other-than-Ashley meaning of "tying to" and use
"end-2-end" for that sort of joint.  Maybe "tail loading" would work!?

Quote
Have you been hit by a derecho then?

Yes, as we were 4 years ago, but with far greater impact & effect,
knocking out power broadly in the D.C. area (and elsewhere,
but local news doesn't seem much concerned about them!)
at a time of record heat --no power, no A/C/, no refrigeration,
and for many of us, no Net (The Final Straw! (egadz, were it
not for cell phones, there would now be countless numbers
of teenage & younger girls lost ... !)).  The forecast was there:
storm coming at 60mph!!  I wondered What's its big hurry?.
Some big oaks toppled, many limbs fell, vehicles were crunched
(nearly 3' dia. oaks exceed vehicle capacities).

weather.gov 3-day history had a cryptic hint --re wind :  "W 21 G 70" !
Seems to have dissipated crossing the Delaware, as Cape May
such data is (a) much later than even 40mph pace would
time it for that 100mi +/-, and (b) W 17 G 21 (Force 4?).

Some places (20% and diminishing, in various power company
regions) are yet w/o power, since Friday 22:30ish, and
several 95^F-ish days.

Ah, yes, this impressive fall --the news reports fail to say
that the downed crown crushed a compact car in the
driveway way across the street-- has been making the
headlines; it's a short walk away (and the comical sign
about "... recently lowered" wasn't there, Sat. mid-day)
www.examiner.com/slideshow/derecho-causes-widespread-wind-damage-from-northern-indiana-to-the-mid-atlantic-states

Ohio showed the most intense spots on a time-laps radar
image of the derecho's journey.


--dl*
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« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 06:35:07 AM by Dan_Lehman »

DerekSmith

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Re: Some Kind of Loop Knot
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2012, 08:06:39 AM »
Thanks Dan, indeed I had used the wrong term, and 'Tail Loading' is most descriptive and for this cogging effect to be seen, the SP loop leg must be completely unloaded - possibly a rare occurence.

I have not experienced a derecho, but two weeks ago a small tornado touched down on us and ran down the street, tearing off roofs, bringing down chimneys and trees.  Only a baby incomparison to the sort of storms the US experiences, but still quite shocking when you experience winds of that force for the first time.

Derek