Author Topic: Is this a real loop?  (Read 4255 times)

carson95

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Is this a real loop?
« on: May 28, 2012, 06:26:43 AM »
The other day I was untying a knot and happened upon this one. After studying it for a while, I discovered that it's basically the Manharness Knot tied to be slippery. However, I then realized, that by tying in this way near the end of the rope and then collapsing it, it changes both the knot and its uses. Instead of a fairly weak loop designed to be tied in the middle of a rope, it creates a very sturdy loop for the end of a rope which no matter how much strain is put on it, it is very easy to untie.

So, is this a new knot, or does this knot already exist? If the latter is true, what is it's name?

Follow this link to see step-by-step pictures w/instructions on how to tie it- https://picasaweb.google.com/105523941642200034030/NewLoop?authkey=Gv1sRgCJCM-uiAs9SS3gE

Once tied, you dress the knot by pulling the main loop away from the WE, SP, and release loop. This will collapse the knot, causing it to become very sturdy. You can then attach the main loop to an object and pull with the standing part. I haven't tested it's strength that much yet (other then my own weight) but so far, it hasn't jammed, slipped, or changed in any noticeable way. The nice thing about this loop is that it gets tight, all you have to do is 'un-collapse' it by pulling the release loop and the two ends away from each other. then just pull on the working end and the knot falls apart.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Is it a new knot? Old knot? Good knot?

-Carson

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Is this a real loop?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 06:20:26 PM »
The other day I was untying a knot and happened upon this one.
Be careful where you go --knots curiosity/exploration can lead
to many deep places, with unclear return!
  ;)

Quote
... it's basically the Manharness Knot tied to be slippery.
However, I then realized, that by tying in this way near the end of the rope
and then collapsing it,

You realized this?  --or did the knot, wrong-sidedly loaded,
manifest the collapsed structure for you?
For the named knot is apparently to be used in series,
with both ends loaded, and should otherwise be loaded
in the opposite (reverse) way, which should not capsize
(as the SPart will flow into a sort of crossing-knot form
rather than an unbraced half-hitch/turn ).

Well, here's what I just *realized* : if one reeves the eye
through the slip-bight and draws down the slip-bight, then
one prevents the capsizing/transformation of the original
into the novel, and has a sort of nicely secure *bowline*
(which is morEasily TIB (Tied Inthe Bight) than by reeving,
so that's unhelpful to rockclimber tying in, alas).  !?
And this structure lends itself as a *seed* for growing further
novelties through knotSpacExploration --ELFEKS abound !!
(But do they astound?)

[ELFEKS = empirically less-frequently encountered knotted structures --PvdG]

Quote
... it changes both the knot and its uses :
instead of a fairly weak loop designed to be tied in the middle of a rope,
it creates a very sturdy loop for the end of a rope
which no matter how much strain is put on it, it is very easy to untie.

One can question your assertions of strength, but note my remark
about the (correct or better) orientation of the original --I don't think
that one will be so "weak".  The collapsed knot does seem very easily
loosened --indeed, it seems hard to stay in shape, in some springy,
kernmantle PP marine cord (tends to flatten) I'm fiddling with, now!
As for strength, though, I'm less confident of any gain, there.  And
we might conjecture that there could even be slippage of the *knotting*
down around the merely slightly helical (YMMV w/setting) SPart.

Quote
So, is this a new knot, or does this knot already exist?
If the latter is true, what is it's name?
Bit of a non sequitur implication re nomination : existence doesn't
imply naming.  I'll surmise that no one has thought to give the
structure life as a valid entity, even if others have come across it.
(E.g., the initial slip-bight now serves what purpose?  --it doesn't
even seem to give helpful bulk (to soften SPart's bending, i.e.)
to the knot, and offers a potentially snagging, misleading eye.)

Quote
Follow this link to see step-by-step pictures w/instructions on how to tie it- https://picasaweb.google.com/105523941642200034030/NewLoop?authkey=Gv1sRgCJCM-uiAs9SS3gE

Thanks for that clarity (though as stated elsewhere, black and thin
cord isn't as good a material for illustration as something firmer
that shows shadow).  These images are amply clear, though.


Thanks, Carson,
--dl*
====

carson95

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Re: Is this a real loop?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 03:41:39 AM »
Quote
You realized this?  --or did the knot, wrong-sidedly loaded,
manifest the collapsed structure for you?

Yes, I did realize this. I was taking apart the Good Luck knot and ended with a slippery Manharness. I didn't recognize it at first so I started playing with it. After a moment, I realized that by collapsing it, it made a loop for the end of a rope.

Quote
the initial slip-bight now serves what purpose?  --it doesn't
even seem to give helpful bulk to the knot, and offers a potentially snagging, misleading eye.

So just to clarify- This loop is basically a manharness knot that has been loaded in the wrong direction and uses up more rope than is necessary by offering "a potentially snagging, misleading eye," and for this reason, it has not been made "valid" knot.

Sorry, I just wanted to clarify.

-Carson


Dan_Lehman

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Re: Is this a real loop?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 06:17:54 PM »
Quote
the initial slip-bight now serves what purpose?  --it doesn't
even seem to give helpful bulk to the knot, and offers a potentially snagging, misleading eye.

So just to clarify- This loop is basically a manharness knot that has been loaded in the wrong direction
and uses up more rope than is necessary by offering "a potentially snagging, misleading eye,"
and for this reason, it has not been made "valid" knot.

Carson, there isn't any real maker of knots (i.e., some
judge for inclusion as a "knot" --valid or otherwise).  Of the
infinite ways in which knottable media could be entangled,
some few cases have found use to humans in various
endeavors, and of these, some fewer have been captured
into knots books --and some have NOT been so captured!
Among the posts on this forum is evidence of this.

There are some interesting bowlinesque eyeknots that
can be seen as derivatives of the manharness structure
(loaded backwards, yes!) in which a bight is used in the
tying, and which IMO are quite decent as TIB knots,
and maybe esp. one will prove to be high strength --it
has a nice decreasing-radius curvature to the SPart.

The knot you present is viable in some contexts of material
and loading, but in competition/comparison with many other
eyeknots, I don't hold out hope that it will be preferred,
for reasons stated above.  OTOH, it has already served as a
sort of seed to further thinking and led me to that bowline
variant sketched above (which works better in flexible than
in stiff cordage) --and who knows where else.


--dl*
====