Author Topic: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#  (Read 10353 times)

firebight

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Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« on: May 05, 2012, 02:10:26 AM »
Was wondering if anyone knew if the versatackle cross referenced in the ABOK? I looked in my book and could not find anything.

firebight

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 11:35:31 AM »
I really did not expect an answer to this question as I did search through the ABOK for some time, but I am really surprised that it is not mentioned in the Ashley book as it is such a useful knot.

Let me ask you this, what would the strength of this knot be? after all, it is self locking, would adding a hitch make the strength better? Sorry I am trying to do some research on this knot and its origins.

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 12:07:49 PM by firebight »

SS369

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 02:06:53 PM »
Good day firebight and welcome.

The Versatackle has been discussed quite a bit here in the Forum. One such instance is here > http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=384.0 .

If you would like more examples, the search function brings quite a few more.
I found no reference to this affair in my my two copies of AboK (hard cover and digital), the closest being the trucker's tie-down. But there are many example of block and tackle usage.

As for your additional question(s): Strength is a non-specific question to me because it , the knot does not make the rope stronger, only weaker. So what exactly do you want to know? And where are you asking about a hitch being added to make the strength better?

SS


firebight

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 12:35:12 PM »
I am aware of the link you mentioned and I did read it previous to my post. I was searching for the knot in ABOK and did not find it. Being some 4000 knots in the book, I thought I might have missed it, so thought I would ask here.

As for the strength question, I guess I should have said knot efficiency, usually listed in a percentile like 65%

When I asked about the hitch, I was meaning a safety tie off knot like a two half hitch. The versatackle is supposed to be self locking, but I would feel better tying it off.

Thanks

roo

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 04:05:48 PM »
When I asked about the hitch, I was meaning a safety tie off knot like a two half hitch. The versatackle is supposed to be self locking, but I would feel better tying it off.

It sounds like you need to do more testing to cement in your mind the characteristics of the Versatackle, rather than needlessly multiplying knots based on feelings.
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firebight

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 01:31:24 PM »
Well, gee, I hate to think the response I would have got if I asked a stupid question. Considering the low activity on this forum, I would think one would welcome topics for discussion, rather I got a somewhat snooty response as opposed to a educational discussion.

Pity, I have recently entered the world of knots, and its usefulness as a tool as well as art, was hoping I found a place where I could freely ask questions without being made to feel stupid.

Whatever

Thanks

Wed

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 03:07:43 PM »
Please don't feel stupid at all. Ask all the questions you want

But you have to take into account, all individuals that respond. Some are nice and friendly. Some are just pointing things out ...

I won't be the one to give you helpful hints about practical knots, so I generally keep quiet. With a bit of patience, you may get a few answers. From those, sift out the useful bits.

roo

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 03:13:32 PM »
rather I got a somewhat snooty response as opposed to a educational discussion.
???
Doing actual testing IS educational.  Why shun it?
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SS369

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2012, 03:11:54 AM »
Quote
When I asked about the hitch, I was meaning a safety tie off knot like a two half hitch. The versatackle is supposed to be self locking, but I would feel better tying it off.

Thanks

Hi firebight,

I personally would tie off the versatackle even though it is "self locking. The free end flapping around, depending on your use, could cause slackening of the line and perhaps load shifting. Probably any suitable hitch would suffice.

SS

P.S. The unasked questions are the ones with no answers. ;-)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:38:33 AM by SS369 »

firebight

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2012, 08:20:24 AM »
Thanks 369, in my confined space rescue class, we were taught to always add a safety measure to any knot. What is the cost of a few more inches or feet of rope to ensure security? Rope is cheap, human lives or equipment are not.

roo

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 03:19:06 PM »
...in my confined space rescue class, we were taught to always add a safety measure to any knot. What is the cost of a few more inches or feet of rope to ensure security? Rope is cheap, human lives or equipment are not.
This is getting a little off topic, but even in highly critical applications, you're not going to know what backup measures are needed or even effective unless you test them under the conditions you expect.  A false, untested sense of security can kill.  And if your backup measures are unwarranted or ineffective those extra inches or feet of rope could cost you much needed  time as you tie and untie them or it could cost you needed reach.

I often see backup knots that are much less secure than the knot that they're supposed to be protecting from loose flogging motion.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2012, 05:42:01 PM »
I am really surprised that it is not mentioned in the Ashley book as it is such a useful knot.

In citing some apparent history for the Poldo tackle --which
has sort of similarity in being a supposed mechanical-advantage
structure w/self-locking ability--, an Italian knots book I think
touches a time prior to Ashley, but that structure also isn't in
ABOK.

How do you find this structure helpful?  I have a more
ambivalent view of it : it's at times convenient, but is often
a PITA to implement, and often there are simpler options.

Quote
Let me ask you this, what would the strength of this knot be?
after all, it is self locking, would adding a hitch make the strength better?

Well, that depends on how you implement the structure
(not "knot", but a "knotted structure" --eye knots can be whatever).
In most materials, the locking will likely endure through rupture;
perhaps in the slippery HMPE and some other high-modulus cordage
there will be slippage such that adding a hitch would be necessary
to take the structure through rupture.  In the canonical form of a
closed round sling with eyeknots & the wraps on one side, figure
that with most normally frictive circumstances (i.e., of what this
structure surrounds) one should get a higher tension on the
knotted side, but as push goes to shove in a break test there'd
also be greater *mechanical* stretch --i.e., knot compression--
on this side and tension would tend to equalize and maybe tilt
in favor of more on the unknotted side, leading to a break at
double the strength of the eyeknots, or more (as the unknotted
side might hold greater force via friction at the endpoints).


--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 10:03:42 PM »
I really did not expect an answer to this question as I did search through the ABOK for some time, but I am really surprised that it is not mentioned in the Ashley book as it is such a useful knot.

Let me ask you this, what would the strength of this knot be? after all, it is self locking, would adding a hitch make the strength better? Sorry I am trying to do some research on this knot and its origins.

Thanks

Thanks 369, in my confined space rescue class, we were taught to always add a safety measure to any knot. What is the cost of a few more inches or feet of rope to ensure security? Rope is cheap, human lives or equipment are not.

Hey firebight, and welcome! I intend to help you and to explore knots with you. If I sound condescending, please understand that's not my intent.

I'm realizing now that by "strength", you actually mean "security". I'm sure some people here won't bother explaining the difference because, well, they probably already know what you mean. However, there is an important difference between these two things, and it's always good to communicate with precision in order to minimize confusion. When you included the example of 65%, I was further confused. That percentage is a measurement of strength, but I'm fairly certain that's not what you want us to discuss here.

Security is the propensity to resists knot slippage. I think that's what you want to discuss. In contrast, strength is the propensity to resist rope breakage (e.g., the force at which the rope literally ruptures apart). Strength is more important in fishing knots, where it's important for a fisherman to get as close to 100% strength as possible. A knot only weakens cordage. It does not strengthen it. The knots tied for fishing are rather large and impractical for most rope applications.

To be clear, again, you do NOT seem to want a discussion about strength. At least, I hope not. While strength is something to keep in mind for your knot knowledge, it is not really a factor of consideration for this thread.

To answer your question about security, I personally finish any Versatackle with a tie-off knot, no matter how well the Versatackle seems to be holding. There are numerous options: Half Hitch, Two Hitches on a slip (my favorite), Round Turn and Two Half Hitches at second anchor, or Clove Hitch plus Half Hitch on second anchor, etc. On a rare occasion, I might not finish a Versatackle if, for example, I am in the midst of tightening or loosening the Versatackle.

By the way, a Versatackle is in the Trucker Hitch family. There are quite a few threads about Trucker Hitches. I recommend doing a search for threads discussing Trucker Hitches (and Versatackles). It's not that we can't discuss these things here. It's just that a lot of good posts are already out there and are unlikely to be repeated here. Topics of discussion have included initial anchor hitches, intermediate loops, mechanical advantage, ending tie-off knots, among other topics.

Cheers,
knot4u
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 08:37:08 PM by knot4u »

TMCD

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2012, 12:28:25 AM »
For general use, I would suggest that you utilize the Trucker's Hitch instead of the Versatackle. They're similar in their functions but the Trucker's Hitch is easier to construct and more user friendly at least IMO.

The Versatackle probably tightens or constricts more than a Trucker's Hitch (meaning more mechanical advantage) but I can't think of to many situations where I'd prefer the Ver. over the TH. If I were to glue furniture together or something else which called for tension along that front, then a Ver. would be OK. Of course you'd have to put a towel on the wood or the rope could leave indentions.

I use a Trucker's Hitch to tie my boat down to my trailer and it works wonderful. I see everyone else using straps and those are irritating from my experience. The rope is cheaper than buying straps and it's a delight for me to tie...but you're talking to people who know how to tie knots, most people can't tie a Clove Hitch.

roo

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Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2012, 03:16:33 AM »
For general use, I would suggest that you utilize the Trucker's Hitch instead of the Versatackle. They're similar in their functions but the Trucker's Hitch is easier to construct and more user friendly at least IMO.
A trucker's hitch is inadequate for situations that require incremental or precise tensioning, such as when using a tension tripod to plumb up a post or column in a hole before pouring concrete.  A Versatackle placed every 120 degrees around the post allows you to nudge the post any way you need as you establish a fence line, for example.  The superior tension of the Versatackle is an added benefit that keeps the post firmly in place while the heavy concrete is poured and tamped in.  A C-clamp on the post or column can serve as a convenient anchor point for the vertex of the tension tripod.

When using a Versatackle in woodworking, I just use a sacrificial piece of wood to prevent rope marks.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 07:39:08 PM by roo »
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