Author Topic: Possibly a new knot ? (updated with photos)  (Read 227 times)

Markus

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Possibly a new knot ? (updated with photos)
« on: September 30, 2019, 12:00:14 PM »
I have updated this post below with a link to show photos of the knot. Thank you for taking a look and for your feedback.

Dear members of the International Guild of Knot Tyers

My name is Markus from Bremen, Germany and I am new to this forum.

My family has had a long and close connection to all things nautical and maritime. My uncle being a captain at sea for all his life and my dad Peter, although a commercial air pilot by profession, also and avid boating and sailing fan all his life. With his brother Dieter he founded the Club for Maritime Tradition Vegesack Nautilus e.V. (https://mtv-nautilus.de/), Vegesack being a part of Bremen where actually one of your meetings will take place early October. And Nautilus the name of a maritime pub founded and run by my uncle in the early 80s.

In recent years, my dad Peter has taken up a keen interest of tying knots, learning new knots and even tried his hand at inventing his own interpretation of existing knots. A few years ago, at a sailing trade fair in Bremen he proudly showed people his first "own invention" as he would like to believe. The aptly named "Meyer Stek" :-) Since then he has made sure that we his family would learn it by heart, and he never misses an opportunity to share his new knot with others, regardless of whether they are interested or not :-)

He likes to think that he gave birth to this new knot but obviously it's not that simply at all. My mom had started investigating the possibility of asking knot savvy people like yourself about the novelty of it but did not get very far. She heard about the IGKT in the UK but as her English is rather basic she did not know how to approach you. My fathers 80th birthday is coming up on the 12th October 2019 and I though this would be a good occasion to reach out to you and ask for your expert advice. He would be absolutely thrilled to hear he really invented his knot or equally happy if it already exists and has a history to it.

Now, I am neither a knot expert nor a native English speaker, so forgive my rudimentary and bad description of how it's tied. I have posted photos below, which hopefully will help you understand. The description on those photos are in German only as my Dad's English may be good enough to say "Ready for take off" and "Houston we have a problem" but that's pretty much it.

Here are the photos https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z4lsq02vfunh80y/AAA1SL0-FFi7GK_SrOFIA9vma?dl=0

Photo 1
Picture 1- A Mooring Knot for a mooring ring or plank or other mooring device. Can be released from the boat cockpit remotely. This knot holds tight even under random movements and strong loads. You need a double length of rope to go back and forth to get started.
Picture 2,3,4 Make a loop approximately in the middle of the length of the rope (right hand) and take the other loop (left hand) around the mooring ring or plank and through the first loop (right hand). The rope in your left hand will later be the end that goes back to the boat to then untie the knot remotely..

Photo 2
Picture 5,6,7 now hold the second loop with your right hand and perform another loop with your left, take it through the loop in your right hand and tighten it by only pulling on the last formed loop (photo 6). The left part of the rope hanging down in the photo is to untie the knot remotely whereas the right part of the rope can now hold the load (boat or other objects). To loosen the knot simply give a good pull on the left part of the rope and the entire knot will untie completely.

Please do not hesitate to write back for clarification :-)

Thank you very much for looking into this.

Best Regards from Germany
Markus
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:11:15 AM by Markus »

SS369

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Re: Possibly a new knot ?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2019, 02:48:48 PM »
Hello Markus and welcome.

Sometimes when having a fail at posting pictures (that are sized and in the accepted formats) it can take trying again in a completely new attempt. Don't try just doing to the same post over and over.
Give it another go or post the pictures to a photo sharing web page and attach a link.
Or email them to me and I will help. Just click on my name and it will post my e-address.

SS
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 02:49:19 PM by SS369 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Possibly a new knot ?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2019, 06:15:39 PM »

In recent years, my dad Peter has taken up a keen interest of tying knots, learning new knots and even tried his hand at inventing his own interpretation of existing knots.
There is a common thinking that there exists some set
of **knots** --specifically shaped tangles of cordage--
from which one might select one or another for a ropey
task; and this thinking has worked okay in most cases.
Beyond this, though, one might look over the sort of
formal knots set and see in them ways to make cordage
do things --such as lock & hold, grip something against
sliding along it, and so on.  Taking this latter view, one
might be said to know *knotting*, and what results from
one's efforts at any particular time could lie outside of
the set of "known" knots --and be perfectly suited to
the ropey task!

Quote
A few years ago, at a sailing trade fair in Bremen
he proudly showed people his first "own invention" as he would like to believe.
The aptly named "Meyer Stek" :-)
And why is that knot not brought here for inspections?
Most I find on-line --very little-- is this:
http://www.socialcurrywurst.de/2019/07/meyer-stek/
and this hides some important part of the slipped hitch.
Taking the more obvious/fewer-crossings interpretation
of this image, I get a knot that does NOT hold, but just
spins around the object to spill --of course a bad result.
Putting in a tuck behind what we can see here,
I have a sort of simple overhand hitch but with the
tail tucking up through a nipping turn/loop in the spine
of the overhand --and this looks good (so far : tying
with my swimming trunk's draw string around a library
small pencil --decently, 2 B sure : nothing dropped!  ::)  ;D  .

Quote
He likes to think that he gave birth to this new knot but obviously it's not that simply at all.
... he really invented his knot  ...
Oh, but not far from that joy should be that he figured
out the knot on his own, irrespective of what anyonElse
has done.  (Against this, though, is a charge that he
did little research of knots!)

Markus, what you describe --yes, I'm a big advocate
that language CAN work (while knowing how it can
mislead and fail to work, too; but one can ask for
more words, 2 B Sure!)--
is --and you can check this on-line readily--
the highwayman's hitch.  Beyond looking for this
(dubious) knot's "history" --I surmise it it much invention,
as so much of popular knotting is--, you might also look
at Roo's page for a better version of the same thing.
(The problem with the former is that full force is put
upon the toggling slip-bight, and the latter puts the
force on what I call the "frame" through which this
slip-bight is held, and so it's less strongly pressed upon.
cf. https://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html


Quote
Best Regards from Germany
Markus

Cheers,
--dl*
====

ps : Just took an editorial swipe at good ol' Wikipedia,
whose presentation of what Roo's page entitles "Tumble Hitch"
somehow deviated from the subject hitch!

{{Infobox knot
| name = Tumble hitch
| names = a better [[Highwayman's hitch]], Bank Robbers Knot, Getaway hitch or Quick-release knot
| image = G?venliceEskiyaBagi4.JPG
| caption =
| type = hitch
| type2 =
| strength =
| origin =
| related = [[Highwayman's hitch]], Mooring hitch
| releasing = Non-jamming
| uses = Quick-release, draw loop hitch
| caveat = potentially unstable
| abok_number =
| conway_notation =
| ab_notation =
}}

The '''tumble hitch''' is a "slip-free", quick-release hitch [[knot]] used
for temporarily securing a [[rope]] such that it can be released easily
to be completely free of the hitched-to object (instead of still being
wrapped around it). The hitch might be able to be untied with a tug
of the working end, even when under tension; but the workings depend
upon materials and forces; note that in some cases, "under tension"
will amount to simply being tied and the line itself giving significant
tension by weight. The tumble hitch is tied in the bight.

Usually two locking turns (as in the pictures here) suffice for a knot
secure enough for most purposes, but another could be added for
further stability.  The general knotting principles evident in this and
the well-published "highwayman's hitch" can be implemented in a
variety of ways.  This knot was designed specifically to avoid the
problem of the highwayman's hitch of putting the full force of loading
upon the locking toggle ("slip") bight, which esp. in soft cordage can
collapse that and pull it though the bight "frame" it had locked against!
Hence,The Notable Knot Index recommends the tumble hitch
as a more stable hitch than the [[highwayman's hitch]].
<ref>{{Cite web|publisher=Notable Knot Index|url=http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html|title=The Tumble Hitch|accessdate=2012-02-25}}</ref>


==Tying==
Tying sequence for one variant of the tumble hitch.
Why isn't the specific, titled knot shown?
A problem with this presented variant is that it puts in a nipping turn --like in a sheepshank-- which can hold the line hitched to the object even after the slip-bight/toggle has been pulled out!!  Then, one must hope some vigorous shaking of the line will spill this nipping loop --potentially a difficult task.
<gallery>
File:G?venliceEskiyaBagi1.JPG|Place bight 1 over a beam
File:G?venliceEskiyaBagi2.JPG|Cross a bight near the working part over the standing part, under beam, up through bight 1
File:G?venliceEskiyaBagi3.JPG|Pass the working part below and around the standing part and a bight up through bight 2
File:G?venliceEskiyaBagi4.JPG|Tighten by pulling standing part and last bight
</gallery>

==See also==
*[[list of knots]]
==References==
{{Reflist}}
== External links ==
* [http://www.animatedknots.com/tumble/ tying instructions]
{{Knots}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Tumble Hitch}}
[/list]
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 09:46:40 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Markus

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Re: Possibly a new knot ? (updated with photos)
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2019, 10:23:52 AM »
Hi Dan
Thank you for your detailed feedback.
I had technical problems uploading photos to my post but updated my post just now with a link to show photos of my dad's knot.
Please feel free to comment
Kind regards
Markus

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Possibly a new knot ? (updated with photos)
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2019, 09:51:04 PM »
Hi Dan
Thank you for your detailed feedback.
I had technical problems uploading photos to my post but updated my post just now with a link to show photos of my dad's knot.
Please feel free to comment
Kind regards
Markus
Okay, I didn't see this in the finished image,
but it's familiar now.  And it suffers the same
problem as I described for Wikipedia when the
SPart hitches/loops around the frame --that
can hold!  --the tail needs to be pulled hard
enough to not only come free of the nip but
to free the nipped "frame" from the loaded SPart,
overcoming friction around the object, which can
be considerable --likely not so much for metal
mooring rings; more so for a wooden pile or
tree limb.
(I believe that we have such a knot presented here
a few months ago.  Ah, yes, voici:
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6368)


Thanks,
--dl*
====
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:30:13 PM by Dan_Lehman »

roo

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Re: Possibly a new knot ? (updated with photos)
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2019, 01:34:14 AM »
(I believe that we have such a knot presented here
a few months ago.  Ah, yes, voici:
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6368)
Dan,

Excellent memory/searching!

Markus,

I think that you'll find as you test your structure on larger objects (or with smaller line), the lack of stability will become more apparent.

There a number of similar alternatives that should serve with better stability:

Tumble Hitch
Tumbling Timber Hitch (3rd image)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 01:41:59 AM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Possibly a new knot ? (updated with photos)
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2019, 06:06:07 PM »
Dan,
Excellent memory/searching!
Well, the memory of that should be there (oh, mine sooo much
is lost), and the handy Search term was "tumble" I think
(with fortunately a small number of hits),
though "highwayman's" also comes to mind.

Quote
There a number of similar alternatives that should serve with better stability:
Ah, but it was TOO good stability --that sheepshank-like nipping--
that challenges the "turNip'd" structures
(I know the allure of casting a turNip, and have learned
the cost, too.)

 ;)

Markus

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Re: Possibly a new knot ? (updated with photos)
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2019, 01:10:21 PM »
Hi Dan
after seeing that video I have to say it does look like the same as my dad's knot. And it answers the questions whether he found a new knot or not. Well, not on this occasion.
Thanks very much to everybody for their research feedback.