Author Topic: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408  (Read 9948 times)

Dan_Lehman

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A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« on: March 09, 2012, 07:29:05 AM »
One of the most common mid-line eyeknots is the
lineman's loop which is popularized these days as
the (alpine) butterfly loop --where some have tried
a sort of *back formation* of seeing "alpine" as the
distinguishing name for a simpler, like eyeknot.
(The adjective can also be seen as pointing to the
original source of the (rest of the) name --viz.,
Wright & Magowan's Alpine Journal 1928 article.)
(The most common mid-line eyeknot is probably
the offset overhand loop .)

I have long regarded Ashley's end-2-end knot #1408
as a sort of *pure* butterfly in that it is symmetric,
uncompromised by the need to be "TIB" (tied in the bight).
Thus, it was quite a thrill for me to discover a #1408-like
TIB eyeknot !!  --yes, it, too, is compromised by the need
to be TIB, but it has more symmetry in its nub, in the
paths of the two ends (loaded on through loading).
One side has a double collar, the other just the usual.

One of the faults of the butterfly is that it can jam
when loaded qua eyeknot, as the unloaded part will
enable the collar around it to be collapsed hard,
making the knot hard to loosen & untie.  This directional
#1408 eyeknot is no worse than the butterfly in
this regard, when loaded in the worse way, but it is
much better --non-jamming, like the end-2-end knot--
when loaded so that the double collar surrounds the loaded
end.  Why this is is because both legs of the eye flow
into this double collar, with one continuing into the loaded
part, and the other --which would be the one collapsing
if collaring the unloaded end-- turns back through the
central nip, AND THEN collars the unloaded end.  So,
in normal cordage --maybe not in HMPE-- friction will
stop any force from reaching the opposite collar, and
so both collars will be able to be pushed back for loosening.

My excitement with this knot is evidenced by my taking
the unusual bother to show two sides of it, and to link
eyes from each view into a common one, shared.

The photo of actual rope is made to show 3 stages of
forming the knot:

1) uppermost, leftmost, shows a "slip knot" with its
slipping end turned to form a matching, anti-clockwise
rotation to the other end (rotations don't match, in the
butterfly/lineman's loop); a red string marks one part
(low-tech graphics, this!)

2) here --center structure--, the formed eye has been brought
around and up through the knot, keeping that red-lined
part on the proper side (this is the double collar);

3) and finally, all is snugged up (half-inch rope, now).


--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2015, 11:13:45 AM »
  Not bad !  :)
This is not a knot.

Z

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2015, 10:01:59 PM »
Since nobody else will, I'll be the first to admit I have no idea how to tie that.
If you're reading this, it's too late.

zoranz

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 12:00:45 PM »
New (positive) winds in the forum. Xarax commends and supports DL. :) That is what I like to read. I'll deal with this loop, certainly worth the effort!
Regards,
ZZ
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 12:13:37 PM by zoranz »

Z

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 04:22:53 PM »
I still couldn't do it after several attempts.
If you're reading this, it's too late.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 06:40:08 PM »
Since nobody else will, I'll be the first to admit I have no idea how to tie that.
Z, my knot-forming photo shows the knot (in cordage,
with a small red piece meant as *highlighter*)
in some tying steps.  If you get the uppermost
of these three stages, you'll understand.
And the uppermost (and most *open*/exploded)
shows the rope as coming from the right side
making a slip knot --i.e., there is a bight of the
left-side used to complete the overhand (for the right),
and the bight is given a half-turn (legs crossed)
and laid upon the left-side end.
SEE THIS.

Now, the completion of the directional eye knot
(it can be loaded either direction, but loading such
that the S.Part is the end pulling into twin collars
should not jam the knot --should not collapse the
collar going around the opposite, unloaded end),
comes by taking this slip knot's bight (yeah,
squeezing it together for grip!) as it's laid
down under the left-side end (which it was laid
upon) --i.e., turning around it...-- and up through
the central nipping area.

(In these sorts of knots there can be different ways
to orient or even position the tucking of the eye-bight.)

There are many such constructs, using the overhand
or other (fig.8) base.

And I think I've presented in one of the IGKT forums one
with "twin eyes", where the point is not only the pure
symmetry of the knot but the defeating of collapsing
a collar (that is around the unloaded end) by having
"twin" eyes --i.e., eyes each of which collars a unique
*end*, and the one that would collapse ... , cannot,
for --"twin eyes" being loaded together qua one-- the
other eye resists the pull & denies the extension of
that eye which would result from collar material being
pulled through the nip into it.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 09:39:27 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Z

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2015, 04:07:34 PM »
I'm still trying! It's nearly impossible for me to follow written instructions about tying a knot. My brain just doesn't work like that. So, I have to keep studying the pics.
If you're reading this, it's too late.

zoranz

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 10:35:19 AM »
I tried, using DL's photo. Not simple, but I succeeded. Anyway, hope that maestro Xarax will continue with his own series of pictures (I prefer in color and only color). I am surprised that his post with the first pic disappeared. Not usual/practical to use pins for fixing. I should rather try with an insulating tape...
Regards, ZZ

Edit: Now I see that written instructions by Xarax are deleted, too. I copied off (color) photos in Reply #1 (till it exists :)).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 12:51:27 PM by zoranz »

Mobius

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2015, 02:30:26 PM »
New (positive) winds in the forum. Xarax commends and supports DL. :) That is what I like to read. I'll deal with this loop, certainly worth the effort!
Regards,
ZZ

Indeed, I will even make a partial 'return' to the forum to support this sentiment. The loop in question looks interesting, though I have not tied it yet.

Cheers,

mobius
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 02:35:56 PM by mobius »

Z

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2015, 08:10:59 PM »
I finally got it and tried it in a Trucker Hitch.  The only time I really use a directional mid-line loops (or any mid-line loop) is when I tie a Trucker Hitch. I'll be sticking with the Span Loop for that.
If you're reading this, it's too late.

Tex

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2015, 03:07:42 AM »
Good midline fixed loops (if really fixed) are great because they are of course first good bends, and second should be good loops as well.  I haven't had a chance to figure out what this thing in the photos is, but it sounds like a nice find.  As this post brought the span loop into my thoughts, I recently ended up tying that bend to connect some thin soft cord to some thicker, and very stiff rope.  Easy to to tie, and it did the job very nicely.  This configuration shows the knot in a different light to me.  The simpler side of the bend (the side not involving the first loop twist), at least when tied in this context, forms a simple bowline-like 270 degree turn*, and nothing else.  The thin rope then makes something like a transom hitch around the crossing. Although I haven't put it through any testing or even as much as a shaking or hard loading, it seems to be a nice sheet bend replacement on initial impression.  Once I get a chance to figure out DL's knot I'll see about that as well.

*Actually even after selecting the thicker rope as the simpler side of the bend, there are still two "dressings" that are different enough that I'd tend to call them different bends, even though the difference is tying is merely the relative placement of the two tails.   One seems clearly better than the other.

Now in search of the killer knot, I add sheet-like bend to the usual hopes of bend, mid-line loop, end-of line loop, TIB, PET-2, non jamming.  We want it all right?   

Tex

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2015, 12:37:50 AM »
Sorry to continue the off-topic digression but I must correct my error.   When tying the bend form of the span loop I tied an imposter, formed by taking the last "loop"(two tails) up around the opposite side of the first loop before tucking under the second.  It's not an imposter in the sense of looking anything like a span loop, just in tying method.  This imposter makes a nice bend for different sized ropes.  The real span loop also seems to kind of work (as well as any random tangle-hitch), but I'm not impressed with it for that.

Tex

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2015, 01:18:40 PM »
Your second link seems close, but no cigar as far as I can tell.  The knot I tied is simply made by starting with the second image here:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html

but instead of flipping the bottom loop back and up and tucking it forward, exactly as shown by the arrow, instead flip it forward and up and tuck it back.

The geometry the tangle takes as a loop is very different though than as a differential bend (to spin a term).

Now, regarding the knot in this thread, I did take a few minutes and with a little deductive guesswork managed to tie it.  I did not however, in the first attempt, learn how to tie it a second time. Well they say third time's a charm.

Tex

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2015, 02:54:36 PM »
The picture in the link is perfectly clear.  I won't waste time with clamping a light, sd cards, resizing and stripping and uploading just because you don't like roo.  If you don't care to look, that's your business.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 02:55:29 PM by Tex »

Tex

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Re: A Mid-line (directional) Eyeknot like Ashley's #1408
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2015, 03:51:46 PM »
I showed what I mean.  You just don't want to look.  By the way, while your photos are great, they don't always make the tying method obvious.  Short cut or not, what my link to roo's pics did, is make the tying method obvious.  Yes to see the knot, now you have to tie it, but the fact is that's a better way to see it anyway, and this makes THAT easier even than your photos do.   The only arrogance here is one assuming that only his way is right and refusing to look at any other way while demanding(by threat of insult) work from others to comply with his way.    And you were doing so well recently.