Author Topic: Jam-Resistant Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST  (Read 18571 times)

knot4u

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 06:26:20 PM »
I did have a stubborn jam with your Ossel Hitch you have shown when used on a small object.  But since the discussion is focused on larger objects, maybe that's not relevant.

Communication error... The list is not about large objects. Rather, we assume the object may be large or huge. For example, the object may have a diameter of 1 cm, or the object may have a diameter of 300 cm. So, hitches with more wraps are given a higher number. It's a fair rule for the purpose of being able to categorize knots on the list consistently. That said, I agree with you about the Fist Hitch.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 06:53:26 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 06:29:33 PM »
Hi K4U,

Might I ask why you have captioned the simple hitch as "It's not secure enough for almost all applications"?

It is designed to be secure (as in not slip) for all loads up to the failure of the rope, and yet be removable with a simple removal of the load and flicking a wave into the rope.  Have you mixed up security with 'ease of removal', because where you have a constant load, it is as secure as gravity itself...

Derek

...OK, but does the Simple Hitch hold securely for a broad variety of basic applications? For example, given this straight pole, is the Simple Hitch going to be a sane option for that application? Probably not, the Simple Hitch holds securely for only a narrowly defined set of parameters, thus my statement, "It's not secure enough for almost all applications".

I'll change the statement to prevent confusion.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 06:53:50 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 06:49:55 PM »
I did have a stubborn jam with your Ossel Hitch you have shown when used on a small object.  But since the discussion is focused on larger objects, maybe that's not relevant.

OK, but do you think of the Ossel Hitch as generally being jam-prone? If so, then the Ossel shouldn't be there. Keep in mind, it's possible to jam other knots here, such as the Gnat, but I don't think they should be taken it off just because you it's possible to jam them with certain narrowly defined materials and objects.

DerekSmith

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 06:57:08 PM »
Quote
It's secure only for a narrow sliver of applications (e.g., the V-shaped object in the pic), but it wins the "smallest" award.

Or a hook, or a ring or horizontal pole, in fact most non critical applications with a reasonably high CF and a constant load... (like my tomato and cucumber lines to the overhead support bars).  Also, because it has no sharp turns, it is virtually 100% strong...

Come to my greenhouse in a few weeks and you will see hundreds of these "a little too gimmicky" hitches, requiring no particular "special combination of hitching object and rope geometry" in order to be entirely possible, easy, safe, functional, economical in cordage, and just down right esthetic in its demonstration of the fundamental laws of knotting and hitches.

Derek

roo

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 07:03:09 PM »
Come to my greenhouse in a few weeks and you will see hundreds of these "a little too gimmicky" hitches, requiring no particular "special combination of hitching object and rope geometry" in order to be entirely possible
How do you get it hold with no shoulder?
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roo

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 07:11:31 PM »
OK, but do you think of the Ossel Hitch as generally being jam-prone?
After now getting another jam on a .70 inch diameter object with a 3/16 inch line, I wouldn't describe it as jam-resistant.

The smaller object was .312 inches.
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DerekSmith

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 07:12:09 PM »
Come to my greenhouse in a few weeks and you will see hundreds of these "a little too gimmicky" hitches, requiring no particular "special combination of hitching object and rope geometry" in order to be entirely possible
How do you get it hold with no shoulder?

See http://notableknotindex.webs.com/friction.html  -  simply take the end under the loaded cord at the top of the support bar.  It is the friction that hold it, not the shoulder.  The positive feedback of the load gripping the cord at the top of the bar is amplified by the turn.  With most agricultural cordage onto galvanised pipe the CF is more than adequate.

Derek

roo

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 07:17:52 PM »
How do you get it hold with no shoulder?
See http://notableknotindex.webs.com/friction.html  -  simply take the end under the loaded cord at the top of the support bar.
???
I'm going to have to see a picture of this actually working, and preferably one without hot glue.   ;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:39:50 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 07:30:40 PM »
Come to my greenhouse in a few weeks and you will see hundreds of these "a little too gimmicky" hitches, requiring no particular "special combination of hitching object and rope geometry" in order to be entirely possible
How do you get it hold with no shoulder?

See http://notableknotindex.webs.com/friction.html  -  simply take the end under the loaded cord at the top of the support bar.  It is the friction that hold it, not the shoulder.  The positive feedback of the load gripping the cord at the top of the bar is amplified by the turn.  With most agricultural cordage onto galvanised pipe the CF is more than adequate.

Derek

I think you're describing Round Turns plus a Simple Hitch. That's fine, but that hitch would not go in the number one spot!

For comparison, the Round Turn & Two Half Hitches is currently down at #11, while Two Half Hitches is currently at #4.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:46:03 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 07:40:45 PM »
OK, but do you think of the Ossel Hitch as generally being jam-prone?
After now getting another jam on a .70 inch diameter object with a 3/16 inch line, I wouldn't describe it as jam-resistant.

The smaller object was .312 inches.

Doing some testing myself, I agree.

DerekSmith

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2012, 09:31:28 PM »
How do you get it hold with no shoulder?
See http://notableknotindex.webs.com/friction.html  -  simply take the end under the loaded cord at the top of the support bar.
???
I'm going to have to see a picture of this actually working, and preferably one without hot glue.   ;)

LOL, nice one Roo, but you know a single spot of photoshop is worth a whole yard of Ductape and hot glue.

Instead of relying on a picture of dubious character, have a go for yourself.  I have ca 2" hot dip galvanised support tubes and generally I use a cheap two strand hempen garden twine.  simply wrap it once around the tube and tuck the end under the turn at the top of the pipe.  As you own site explains, if it holds one pound, it will hold a hundred due to the positive feedback from the construction.

It was your very self who introduced me to this vital mechanism of knotting, an aspect that I consider second only to cogging in knotting functionality importance.

Derek

DerekSmith

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2012, 09:36:00 PM »
Come to my greenhouse in a few weeks and you will see hundreds of these "a little too gimmicky" hitches, requiring no particular "special combination of hitching object and rope geometry" in order to be entirely possible
How do you get it hold with no shoulder?
See http://notableknotindex.webs.com/friction.html  -  simply take the end under the loaded cord at the top of the support bar.  It is the friction that hold it, not the shoulder.  The positive feedback of the load gripping the cord at the top of the bar is amplified by the turn.  With most agricultural cordage onto galvanised pipe the CF is more than adequate.

Derek

I think you're describing Round Turns plus a Simple Hitch. That's fine, but that hitch would not go in the number one spot!

For comparison, the Round Turn & Two Half Hitches is currently down at #11, while Two Half Hitches is currently at #4.

Nope, just a single turn with the end tucked under the turn at the top of the tube - exactly as in the simple turn image but without the crutch.

Derek


roo

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2012, 09:45:08 PM »
LOL, nice one Roo, but you know a single spot of photoshop is worth a whole yard of Ductape and hot glue.
I'll have to trust you not to photoshop.

Quote
As you own site explains, if it holds one pound, it will hold a hundred due to the positive feedback from the construction.
I think you're reading too much into the capstan equation.

Quote
Instead of relying on a picture of dubious character, have a go for yourself.  I have ca 2" hot dip galvanised support tubes and generally I use a cheap two strand hempen garden twine.  simply wrap it once around the tube and tuck the end under the turn at the top of the pipe. 
Since this is not working for me, I'll have to wait for the photo to verify configuration and results.

Implicit in the requirement for non-jamming hitches is the expectation that these hitches would take loads that would jam other hitches, and not just the weight of a feather.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:00:19 PM by roo »
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DerekSmith

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Re: Non-Jamming Hitches that Don't "Need" a Slip, from smallest to BIGGEST
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012, 10:37:34 PM »
LOL, nice one Roo, but you know a single spot of photoshop is worth a whole yard of Ductape and hot glue.
I'll have to trust you not to photoshop.

Quote
As you own site explains, if it holds one pound, it will hold a hundred due to the positive feedback from the construction.
I think you're reading too much into the capstan equation.

OK, No Photoshop, no glue, only friction.

I don't think my tomatoes have read the capstan equation, but they all seem quite convinced that they are being held upright, and my beefsteak toms weigh in at about a pound per fruit, about 5lb per truss.

Derek