Author Topic: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?  (Read 30248 times)

xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2012, 05:43:05 PM »
  What is different in the hitch I had presented - and which will become quite evident after half a century I believe,  :) -  is that the two ends of the coiled structure are tightened together even before the "lower" of them is tensioned by the externally applied load. So any slack is diminished, the coils are kept as tightly wrapped around the pole as possible, even before we hang something from the 'lower" end...
   If we find another, stronger, better way to tighten and hold  the two ends of the coil tube together, that would be an improvement, indeed, over the '"beefed up Glipnir hitch". The only simple way I have found, is to 'beef up" the Gleipnir coil itself, i.e. to use a double inverted Gleipnir coil instead of the single one. This way the Gleipnir tube is longer, and the twisted pair of tails inside it is nipped more effectively.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 10:10:12 PM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2012, 06:29:07 PM »
Incorrect... Well Pipe (ABOK #504) can do that, but better and simpler.  In fact, I currently have a pole in my garage being held by a Well Pipe Hitch.
 The coils were pre-tightened and have hardly moved.

   Of course, you can very well pre-tighten the coils by your hand force, without using a knot to do this, and then try to somehow fix the ends together, at the very end of this tightening procedure. However, the tension you have applied by your hands will not be accumulated withing the coils, unless you already have a knot at the two ends, that will prevent any tension applied to be released. And this accumulated tension will thus be maintained, EVEN IF the load at the one end is not yet applied, or it is applied and then released many times.
   One could help in a constructive  way here, trying to find out a more secure, stronger, better way we can tighten the two ends of the coil tube together - and keep them tightened even when there is no force applied to the "lower" one... I am sure there would be other, perhaps better and/or simpler ways... but I myself have not figured out anything yet.
   See the ABoK#1740, and a simple modification of it, for another solution :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3016.msg17923#msg17923
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 10:14:15 PM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2012, 07:28:59 PM »
  The one end/leg of the Pipe hitch (ABoK#504) remains straight, and the other is wrapped twice around it, and so the two half-hitches end knot made by them can not be a tight knot, and can not secure the straight end/leg without any additional pull. The closing of the Pipe hitch is, in fact, not even the one tenth as tight as the Gleipnir coil tube.

P.S. The attached picture from the ABoK has the "lower" and the 'higher" ends inverted, because it shows a pipe hung by the standing end of the Pipe hitch tied on it, and not vice versa. The closing knot that connects the two ends of the coil structure is usually placed on the 'lower" end of the coiled friction hitches - if the hitch is loaded by the hung weight of another body, and the axis of the pole is placed verticaly.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 10:43:12 PM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2012, 07:55:59 PM »
   I have actually used the "beefed up Gleipnir hitch" for several different applications. I can say from personal experience that my descriptions of it is accurate - I have tested it repeatedly, and found it much tighter and superior than the Pipe hitch.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 10:24:44 PM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2012, 08:09:36 PM »
The Round Turn and Two half hitches used as the closing knot at the Pipe hitch, is not a tight knot around the standing part, if the standing end is not kept under continuous loading. Instead, a loose standing end will slip through the two half hitches, and will feed the coils, sooner or later. So the tension that is accumulated inside the coil tube will be released - unless the load on the standing end is constantly applied.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 10:23:16 PM by xarax »
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Hrungnir

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 01:22:53 AM »
The Kleimheist is a good option, but if you want more security for a little bit more complexity, there is a similar alternative.

The Beefed up KC Hitch invented by DerekSmith:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=551

« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 01:23:48 AM by Hrungnir »

xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2012, 05:50:42 AM »
  Something that may have not yet been noticed enough, is that a good gripping hitch around poles should connect the two ends of the coil tube, with a closing knot that would be capable of keeping those two ends tightly entangled - even if there is no load at the standing end. This way the tension forces that are accumulated inside the coils during the initial dressing and tightening procedure can not "escape", and the coils of the coil tube remain perpendicular to the axis of the pole, and firmly wrapped around it even before the loading - and they grip the pole even more effectively afterwards, when the standing end is loaded even more.
   (The hitch presented by Derek Smith is a good hitch when tied around a tensioned line, but not so effective a hitch when tied around a slippery pole. )
   To people that still find difficult to remember how to tie the best gripping hitch around poles (known to me...), mentioned at Reply#4, I propose the use of  a multi-coiled double Constrictor. (See the attached picture). It is almost as good in accumulating and keeping the tensile forces inside the coil tube, and has the advantage of being based upon a well-known-to- everybody hitch. ( For two other, more symmetric forms of the Double Constrictor, see ABoK#1253 and (1)).

1)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.msg19035#msg19035
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 06:59:50 AM by xarax »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 06:14:09 AM »
either the Pipe Hitch or the Icicle Hitch.

The gripping hitch around poles, presented at:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg16893#msg16893
is superior, by far, to the Pipe hitch, the Icicle hitch or the Kleimheist hitch (to name but a few...)
I have tested all the known hitches-around-poles, and then some, and I know. Of course, I guess that there will be another half century or so, before we. the concervative knot tyers, will re-discover this fact...but this is how fast things move in our forgotten field.

1) Please note : it is 'klemheist' --only one "i" ("klemme" meaning "clamp"?).

2) "I have tested all the known ..." !!  That assertion alone is
hard to fathom, as to what all is known.  But where are these
test results for public consideration?  The icicle hitch is said
to grip even a tapered spike; that hitch you show as "superior"
doesn't look good enough to hold on slick pole.

3) "I guess that there will be another half century ..."
because you have not shown your test results (and those
have not been checked by others' testing, to confirm or
contradict).  I believe that Derek tested his hitch to a
smooth pole, with a hydraulic jack?


--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 06:50:07 AM »
  But where are these test results for public consideration? 

  I wait to publish them after yours... :)
  As I have said, I prefer OPT...  :) My tests are not at the quality level I would like them to be, so I keep them to myself, for the time being. (However, I always hope  people will not treat me as a liar when I report something - or stop treating me as a liar, as they used to do... I guess I am an optimistic (?))

The icicle hitch is said to grip even a tapered spike;

  "Is said..."  :)  By whom ? Where are his "tests results for public considerataion" ? Did this "who-ever" tested also the hitches I have proposed, and have compared them to the hitches he knew? ( provided he now knows the hitches I have proposed..)

that hitch you show as "superior" doesn't look good enough to hold on slick pole.

"Look" ?  :) Do you judge knots by "looking" at them ?  :) Then, I have the right to question your sight, as you question my word...And to use the exclamation marks the way you did...
It can hold on any pole - including yours - because it can be pre-tightened as much as we can tighten it even before it is loaded - as I have explained many times to "whoever" wishes to listen... And I wait your comparative tests on "knotted materials" tied with those knots. Until then, I suggest you "look" more carefully ! So,yes, it is "superior to the Icicle hitch, BY FAR, as you will be surprised to discover before the end of this half century...

  I believe that Derek tested his hitch to a smooth pole, with a hydraulic jack?

  I do not put a question mark, when I say that Derek Smith has NOT tested the hitch I have proposed, and has not compared it to any other hitches...using a hydraulic or not jack -  just as you, I believe (?)  :).,

 ( It is very easy to attempt to try to diminish the work of others by such "criticism". I wait, and hope, for something more constructive by you. )


« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 07:07:20 AM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 07:59:40 AM »
   I was ready to say just the same thing knot4u just said, but he typed it faster than me... :)
   When we compare gripping hitches ( around poles and/or tensioned lines), we suppose that our different alternatives will use the same number of coils...otherwise our comparison has no meaning. If you wrap a pole or a tensioned line with a rope 100 or 1000 times, it will hold anything !  :)
   The real issue is how we can improve a certain coil tube, with a given number of coils, so it will hold better than another, that has the same number of coils. I have seen that we can accomplish that by pre-tensioning the coils, and by using a closing knot that will not allow the ends to slip through it - so that the pre-tensioned coils will remain in this state even when the standing part is not loaded yet. When the standing part will be loaded, this pre-tensioned ( should we say : pre-stressed , like the pre-stressed concrete ?) coil structure will grip the tube even better, and much better compared to another similar, but not pre-tensioned hitch.
    To achieve this purpose I have used a single or double "inverted" Gleipnir coil, and made the two ends pass through it, be twisted and entangled in its interior, be nipped by the surrounding coils, and so resist to any release of the tension forces that have been accumulated in the coil structure during the pre-tightening procedure. The multi-coils Double Constrictor proposed at Reply#21 would probably do almo st the same thing, and has the advantage of being a well-known knot to most knot tyers.
   I do not doubt that somebody will figure out another, probably simpler, and/or stronger way to accomplish the same means...After the little quarrel we had with knot4u the other day  :), I thought that it would be nice if we somehow could use a (self-locking) trucker s hitch or versatacke knot, so we gain from the mechanical advantage offered there...This way we could pull the two ends towards each other more effectively, so our pre-tensioning would be stronger. However, I was not able to find a clever way to do this, in the limited space we have between the "higher" and the "lower" of , say, the 4 to 8 coils - and in this inconvenient specific place - because the closing knot is forced to be in contact with the convex surface of the pole...
   
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 08:07:54 AM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2012, 05:49:16 PM »
   A way to improve the pre-tensioning of the coil "tube" just a little bid, is to place the inverted (single or double) Gleipnir hitch at the middle  of our hitch. Doing this, when we pull the one end of the "tube", we have to tighten the one half only  of the number of the coils ( - only the three of them, if we have 6 coils in total, as shown in the attached pictures - ), and when we pull the other end we have, again, to tighten only the other half. The friction forces between the rope and the surface of the pole we have to overcome to tighten each end are, in this way, cut in half, so we are able to convert our pull to internal tension alongside the coiled structure more effectively. If the surface of the pole is slippery enough, and if we can pull each of those two ends forcefully enough, we may thus achieve a more satisfactory pre-tensioning state of the coils around the pole. 
   ( I have to repeat that a coiled gripping hitch can be really improved a lot, if we will manage to figure out a clever way to use the mechanical advantage offered by a (self-locking) tucker s hitch or versatackle knot ( or by any other similar rope mechanism, (1) ) for or purpose : to pull the two ends of the rope that is wrapped around the pole with a greater force, so that the coils will be pre-tensioned, and grip the surface of the pole at an exactly right angle, and tighter, even before the final loading of the hitch. I have not yet found the solution of this very concrete problem, although Ihave tred for quite some time now...It could well be just under my nose,and I am unable to see it.)

1)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21229#msg21229
   
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 06:24:53 PM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2012, 11:07:02 PM »
   A not-so-clever - but also not-so-dumb, I hope  :) - solution to this  problem - of how to use a mechanical advantage in order to pull the two ends of the coil tube towards each other - is the one shown at the attached pictures. I use the simplest binder that offers a 2:1 mechanical advantage I am aware of, based upon two overhand knots tied on the two ends - the tail of each one going through the bight of the other.
  ( At those pictures, I show the hitch in the stage just after the pull of the two ends, and the tightening of the coil structure around the pole. After this stage, we can always pass the one of the two free ends through the central "ring", so it will be re-oriented towards the same end of the pole as the other one.)
   The pre-tightening of the coils has also another beneficial effect, that I have not yet mentioned in this discussion. Not only it enhances the friction forces - because the rope is pressed much harder on the surface of the pole - but also flattens more the round cross section of the rope alongside its helical contact area with the pole. So, it is really no wonder that such a friction htch would be able to hold as effectively as it does - and much more effectively than the friction hitches that do not benefit from such a mechanism. 
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Hrungnir

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2012, 11:21:47 PM »
xarax, do you find any of these hitches comparable to Klemheist and Prusik in quikness to tie?

Mike didn't mention simplicity and quikness/easiness to untie, but I would assume that's something he wants in a work situation.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 11:22:55 PM by Hrungnir »

xarax

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2012, 12:02:37 AM »
xarax, do you find any of these hitches comparable to Klemheist and Prusik in quickness to tie?

   As I have said, any friction hitch based upon not-crossed multiple coils is, in fact, not a "quick" knot to tie... It needs careful setting and dressing, otherwise it will not function properly, because the coils will cross each other, etc.
   The hitch based upon the 'simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir" is almost as quick as most climbing friction hitches to set, but, as it needs tightening to gain its full advantage, to complete its tying  takes a little bid longer. That is the price you have to pay, to get a pre-tensioned, tightly wrapped multi-coils structure around a slippery pole. Taking into account the cost/benefit ratio, I think it is worth the added trouble. Also, the multi-coiled Double Constrictor is a relatively quick knot to tie, and it might take a shorter time for people that know/understand this knot to tie it, even than the time required to tie some climbing hitches.
   The other hitches, that would require a tensioning of both ends of the coil tube through the use of a rope mechanism offering a mechanical advantage, require much more time. They are supposed to be useful only when the situation is very demanding - and we wish to make some show-off, and not just wrap the pole with our rope 10 or 20 times !   :)
   A specific problem is able to put our knot-tyers mind in motion, and the results of this motion might be proven to be useful in other problems, in the future. That is what has happened to me time and again, and when a new problem arrives, general solutions of other problems might serve as starting points to fill the dots, and arrive at a new solution, for the new problem. The Knot Land is not a place where some strange species of knots live, independently the one of the other. It is a complex "knotting environment", a sort of a mega-organism where the individual knots are but cells or organs, and where each animal is related to any other...and in order to understand this environment, we have to pay attention even to the most bizarre, lonely beasts...
   We are not just knot-users here, I guess. we do not need to learn only the smallest number of the most simple knots, do our job, and ignore everything else... I want to learn every possible simple knot that exists, and I want to learn them not as a collector, but as a person that wishes to understand the subject he finds interesting...And to understand knots, we have to explore all the interesting knots , not only the knots that answer a few needs, and need only a very short time or understanding to tie!
   I am applying grease and butter and oil on the poles, and see how the hitches I tie behave on those things...  :) Do you think that I am so fool to believe that I might need to adress the problem of tying a friction hitch around a stinky slimy pole in my (short) remaining life ?  :) I am just curious, and I would be glad if I die after  I have met the most effective gripping hitch, even if I will most probably never use it, neither in this life, nor in the other one ... :)
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Hrungnir

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Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 12:44:04 AM »
   The hitch based upon the 'simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir" is almost as quick as most climbing friction hitches to set, but, as it needs tightening to gain its full advantage, to complete its tying  takes a little bid longer. That is the price you have to pay, to get a pre-tensioned, tightly wrapped multi-coils structure around a slippery pole.
Tying knots when I'm a bit stressed, tired, tying it in around an awkward object, in rainy and cold weather, are situations when I do actually find a lot of knots very difficult to tie. They seemed easy and simple at home, but when I'm out there I get easily frustrated when I'm stressed out and in a hurry. The once so easy, simple and quik knots seems complex, messy and slow.

Gleipnir is one of those knots, and that's why I often tie a simple Constrictor even when the Gleipnir would have been a better option. The inverted Gleipnir is even worse. The Gripping Sailor Hitch is perhaps the most effective hitch for a smooth pole I know of, but it's difficult and confusing to tie in situations as described above.

I'm sure the Versatackle-Pole-Hitch would have been great for a permanent application, but tie, pull, untie x 20.... One minute extra is 20 minutes, 3 extra minutes is an hour and time is money (that's how your boss and customer sees it). Was the extra security really needed?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 12:46:03 AM by Hrungnir »