Author Topic: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain  (Read 46140 times)

Hrungnir

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2012, 02:23:12 AM »
I do find it difficult to untie it too in 2mm polyester, but nowhere near as difficult to untie as the Alpine Butterfly Loop in the same material.

Even though the Gnat Hitch isn't as easy to untie as we were hoping for, it's perhaps the best existing none slipped noose-like-hitch when simplicity, security and untie-ability are the important factors. It seems to outperform Two Half Hitches, Buntline, Hangmans Noose, Strangle Snare, Scaffold Knot and the Uni Knot.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 02:27:40 AM by Hrungnir »

TMCD

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2012, 06:44:26 PM »
I've glanced through this thread, note I haven't read every response, but in what scenario would I choose this hitch over say a slipped Buntline Hitch or a slipped Lobster Buoy hitch? Both of those also squeeze down and trap the WE but can also be untied in the slipped version.

roo

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2012, 06:59:29 PM »
I've glanced through this thread, note I haven't read every response, but in what scenario would I choose this hitch over say a slipped Buntline Hitch or a slipped Lobster Buoy hitch? Both of those also squeeze down and trap the WE but can also be untied in the slipped version.
Sometimes you would not want a slip that could be snagged causing release or where simply having a draw loop hanging free would catch on debris or various objects.

Also, a non-slipped knot form is just slimmer.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 07:01:12 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2012, 09:13:41 PM »
In what scenario would I choose this hitch over say a slipped Buntline Hitch or a slipped Lobster Buoy hitch?
Both of those also squeeze down and trap the WE but can also be untied in the slipped version.
Sometimes you would not want a slip that could be snagged
causing release or where simply having a draw loop hanging
free would catch on debris or various objects.

Also, a non-slipped knot form is just slimmer.

Often when I read of some supposed easy-untying got by
slipping the finish of a knot, I wonder if the person claiming
this has ever engaged serious loads on such a knot?!
For, in many cases, it simply isn't true that a slip-tuck
finish enables easy untying; rather, the jammed knot
jams this slip-tuck along with everything else --and if
one relies on some mechanical device to haul out the
slipped tail, there can be damage to the material.

To double-check my opinion on this, I just put some
fat-quarter-inch laid CoEx PP/PE tied in slipped buntline
hitches
to a stress of, oh, perhaps 2-300# (body wgt.
on a pulley).  I could at most haul down one slip-bight
until, nearly freed, the bight tip bulge was not at the
point of constricture.  Then, I tied onto this tail and
probably needed about 70# of *pedal* force to pull
out the slip-bight.  Well, why guess : I now have 112.5#
suspended from the other buntline's slip-bight tail,
with some bit of jostling, this is holding, bight crunched
to the point of nip.  A bit of shock will no doubt set it
free, but that's hardly what I regard as an answer for
ease of untying!  (Yes, after about the fifth small drop
of the 12.5# set of barbell weights, the bight pulled out.)

I think that I'd have been quicker in untying these knots
by struggling to pry out the outer nip of the hitch.


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knot4u

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2012, 05:28:42 PM »
Often when I read of some supposed easy-untying got by
slipping the finish of a knot, I wonder if the person claiming
this has ever engaged serious loads on such a knot?!
For, in many cases, it simply isn't true that a slip-tuck
finish enables easy untying; rather, the jammed knot
jams this slip-tuck along with everything else --and if
one relies on some mechanical device to haul out the
slipped tail, there can be damage to the material.

True, and you can say the same thing for any knot that has the propensity to jam, but sometimes that particular knot is the one you want.  Have you been able to jam a Round Turn and Slipped Buntline? Or a Backhand and Slipped Buntline?

Anyway, I view a Slipped Buntline as a knot for situations I absolutely need the hitch to hold. For comparison, I don't always have the same confidence in a Round Turn and Two Half Hitches.

While a normal Slipped Buntline may jam, the slip provides some hope of untying it under most conditions.  By the way, for all real life tasks in my world, a Slipped Buntline has never jammed on me.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 10:02:29 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2012, 05:40:12 PM »
While a normal Slipped Buntline may jam, the slip gives at least some hope of untying it if the knot has not jammed.  By the way, for all real life tasks in my world, a Slipped Buntline has never jammed on me.
A slip also allows the possibility of releasing the hitch while it is still loaded. 

For example:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/LRslippedbuntline.gif
(discussed here:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html)

A Gnat Hitch may replace a Slipped Buntline Hitch in some cases, but the Slipped Buntline still has quite a few uses.
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roo

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2012, 05:48:13 PM »
Update:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
As an aside, has anyone seen this in any knot publication?  It doesn't seem to be in the Ashley Book of Knots.
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knot4u

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2012, 07:28:55 PM »
While a normal Slipped Buntline may jam, the slip gives at least some hope of untying it if the knot has not jammed.  By the way, for all real life tasks in my world, a Slipped Buntline has never jammed on me.
A slip also allows the possibility of releasing the hitch while it is still loaded. 

For example:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/LRslippedbuntline.gif
(discussed here:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html)

A Gnat Hitch may replace a Slipped Buntline Hitch in some cases, but the Slipped Buntline still has quite a few uses.

OK.

Question, on your site you have "Variant of the Slipped Buntline". That's the Highpoint Hitch, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highpoint_hitch

roo

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2012, 07:48:44 PM »
Question, on your site you have "Variant of the Slipped Buntline". That's the Highpoint Hitch, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highpoint_hitch
It matches what's on that wikipedia entry, although I wonder about the name.  Ashley refers to it as a high post hitch (among other high post hitches).  So did someone misremember both the spelling and Ashley's lack of naming?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 07:56:09 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2012, 07:54:48 PM »
Question, on your site you have "Variant of the Slipped Buntline". That's the Highpoint Hitch, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highpoint_hitch
It matches what's on that wikipedia entry, although I wonder about the name.  Ashley refers to it as a highpost hitch (among other highpost hitches).  So did someone misremember both the spelling and Ashley's lack of naming?

OK, perhaps modify Wikipedia if you have the time. At least install the ABOK number.

roo

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2012, 08:06:05 PM »
OK, perhaps modify Wikipedia if you have the time. At least install the ABOK number.
I've started a new thread to discuss what it should be called:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3792.0
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2012, 04:29:18 AM »
I was searching for a non-slipped noose-like hitch (only one pass around the object)
that collapses and squeezes the object, but can be untied after heavy load
while having good to excellent security.  ...

To answer this "rope problem", I'd try the Uni-knot (or something
similar), as there the heavy loading coming into the *knot*
part of the noose-hitch will bear upon the turns around
the noose-SPart, which themselves will be more or less
as tight as set --and not tighter per loading.  To untie,
one should be able to work the knot back along the noose's
SPart, and thereafter loosen the knot itself (as it, too, should
not be jammed).

What you've discovered here is roughly --but for which side
of the noose-SPart the tail is tucked-- what I've called a
"collared half-hitch".  And inspired by this thread (and
recalling that the noose can jam), I tried forming it in the
opposite direction --i.e., as though the SPart were going
in the opposite direction, the object hitched on that side,
and the present nipping cut to become the new tail &
noose-SPart.  This is similar, but maybe has some greater
resistance to jamming --a bit more amenable to working
loose.

And, beyond these, I still like the anchor-bend noose
--which amounts to something like a half-length Prohgrip
(Blake's Hitch)
.  It does well with relatively larger objects,
given the way the knot's SPart enters vis-a-vis the noose's
(natural for a right angle, i.e.).


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FalseBeet

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2012, 12:41:45 AM »
Isn't this fundamentally a halter hitch without the bight? If so, could you improve on the security by making it a Siberian hitch without a bight? I guess I'm not personally very clear on when a knot becomes a different knot!

roo

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knot4u

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Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2012, 02:06:10 AM »
Isn't this fundamentally a halter hitch without the bight? If so, could you improve on the security by making it a Siberian hitch without a bight? I guess I'm not personally very clear on when a knot becomes a different knot!

No, look more closely. If you slide the standing end out, then the Gnat does not have a knot left over. The Halter and Siberian do. The knot in the Halter is an Overhand. The knot in the Siberian is a Fig 8.