Two knots tied on the same rope material do not slip. Are they equally secure ?
Of course not.
Yes, they are, in that material. ... It points to an issue on the definition of "knot",
with concerns I've mentioned before, about treating *knots* as schemas for the
formation of knottablematerial, rather than as instances of something knotted.
So, a thief knot is a safe, secure, knot ! Because it can be tied with a material
with which it will not slip! So, we can not say that a thief knot slips, but only
that "a thief knot not-knotted on this material, may slip" . We can not say
that any knot is slippery or not, because with some materials it will slip, and with
some others it will not. There are no general characteristics of knots : All knots are
equal in the Dan Lehman s Land of knots ! A "materialistic" approach, indeed !
(There are no apostrophes in X's land of keystroke kraziness!)
Did you miss the point about *knot* ?
If one finds a material in which the
thief knot works well,
what is the point to decrying its use
there --perhaps by urging
further searching ...-- where is suited?
The single most important factor is the structure, the geometry of the knot.
It's not so simple. Nor is friction the sole determinant of behavior
--vs. flexibility, cross-section stability, & springyness, e.g..
That is why I said "usual"(sic), "non elastic"(sic) material.
Hmmm, now X. becomes aware of material, though he seems
to want it only with "general" characteristics, not liable to unsettle
a *structured* perspective!
And this relation is going [NOT (you meant to say!)] to be reversed with any other material Z,
because it is the structure of the knot that is the single most important factor that dictates security, ...
And this conjecture about the inviolability of the significance of structure
is just that, and something I think I've seen hints of contradiction for.
Well, "I" have not ! And this is exactly what I have said, again and again, repeatedly :
... so much so as to ignore that I have pointed to one
case where security was reversed. Or that it seems to have
been (security vs. shaking loose), which is enough for me to
put doubt into such a broad generalization, knowing how
diverse knottable media is.
Xarax, you have gone gung-ho here (maybe "oauauao", whatever
that new utterance is, too) over something that is conjecture on
your part, and not wise, in light of how diverse knottable media
is. Here is a simple case that I hope sheds some light on the
variability of *security*:
bowlines have been --and continue to be-- used for ages
in maritime use, without further precaution, for the most part;
their users laugh at suggestions that the knot will slip;
the knots can hold through to rupture, in testing;
but rockclimbers know to beware the
bowline, because of
some well-publicized cases where it has slipped in the
sense of coming loose.
Now, I submit that if one put a shake test on a
bowlinetied in some flexible, 12-strand HMPE (non-coated [and by this
I mean "not coated with urethane or other like treatment",
and NOT "unsheathed" --but, yes, it IS unsheathed/pure]),
the knot will do better than one tied in springy slick PP, or
smooth-slick-&-firmish kernmantle;
BUT, put to the test machine (same knots exactly!),
the not-shaken-loose(now) latter knots (*knots* as knotted
material) will hold to break,
whereas that in HMPE will slip out, spill.
Yes, this is different than your Knot-A & Knot-B scenario;
but it shows the vagaries of knot behavior, and in has specific
aptness to the OP who wants *security*, entirely.
Please don't read me as dismissing structure as important.
But we might come to --with improved, intelligent testing
and demonstration thereof of knot behavior across materials--
see some structures as preferable where materials are very
flexible, say, and other structures good in different cases
(and be less likely to try to find some universally *best*
structure).
--dl*
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