Author Topic: Machard Tresse friction hitch  (Read 9484 times)

xarax

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Machard Tresse friction hitch
« on: February 01, 2012, 10:38:08 AM »
http://www.hi-des-website.com/WildernessTree/tq-mt.html

Any recent information about this friction hitch is welcomed.
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SS369

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 04:52:33 PM »
Hi xarax,

there is a slew of information out there about this hitch and others. Just give Google a search in images using "new friction hitch".

Use "valdotain tresse" as well to see where it leads. ;-)

The info given by users who earn their livings hanging from these and others. Some attempts at applying science to understanding and comparing too.

In the end it is always up to the individual who will use it, to evaluate (test hard!) and choose the best "new" friction hitch for them personally. One size does not fit all here.

Here is a link to follow around.  http://www.mytreelessons.com/Friction%20Hitch%20More.htm
The site owner put in a lot of work to share!

SS

xarax

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 05:17:56 PM »
   Thank you SS369,

   What is very interesting for me, is that some of the Valdotain tresse variations shown here :
http://www.mytreelessons.com/user/VT%20variations.JPG

are very similar to the rat-tail stopper, indeed ! It seems there are more than one, slightly different friction hitches known by this name.
   I do not have any knowledge or experience on climbing friction hitches, so I will patiently try to learn something from any discussion that might take place here.
   I can not understand why the selection of the friction hitch is so subjective a thing, because the ropes used are of similar diameter and composition - more or less. However, I am glad that the "profs" have not yet settled in one knot, like they seem to have done in the case of the double line / fig. 8 bend ( unfortunately !). This way the "natural selection" can go on, and the best knots will survive the less good ones. ( You did nt think even for a brief moment that I meant something else by "natural selection", did you ?  :))
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:30:13 PM by xarax »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 05:48:45 PM »
One could argue otherwise to "very similar", and suggest that
we've seen a quartet of somewhat similar gripping hitches :
  • YaleGrips-like "stoppers" that alternate direction of complete wraps (4 strands);

  • D&T that has just alternating-over/-under wrapping (2 strands);

  • D&T with a leading *guard* nipping/gripping structure (which you've shown);

  • D&T with a trailing gripping structure (valdotain).
The latter sees usage w/arborists, and has the behavior of
enabling reduced frictional movement and re-gripping
--something that might require some experimentation
with the exact number of wraps, per personal cordage used.

Some good information can be found on arborist friction hitches
in articles by Mark Adams (pdf files) located here:
www.treebuzz.com/articles.php

--look for April 2005 "Son of a Hitch ...",
and then
April 2007 --"Climbing Hitches --Addenda & Corrigenda"

(And there might be other work there of interest to this topic.)


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:52:41 PM by Dan_Lehman »

xarax

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 07:11:22 PM »
D&T with a trailing gripping structure (valdotain).

   In the third variation ("Knut finish") and the fourh variation ("Icicle finish"), the gripping structure is, strictly speaking, not "trailing", it lies in between two others, a main leading one ( parallel coils) and a secondary trailing one (a lalf hitch) .- so we have "some self tending".In the rat-tail stopper, we have a main leading one (crossed coils), and a secondary one ( interlinked half hitches).
   I insist that the rat-tail stopper is different from all the others, because it does not have parallel coils at all - which is the common denominaror in all climbing friction hitches. 
     
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SS369

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 09:10:20 PM »
Quote
   I insist that the rat-tail stopper is different from all the others, because it does not have parallel coils at all - which is the common denominaror in all climbing friction hitches. 
     

Hi xarax.

Yes, the RT stopper is different and it is different for the main usage it is destined to be used for. It is not a slide and grip hitch to be used for climbing, but for holding a larger rope and then hopefully be released easily, which it or a variation of it does well enough.

As for using it, the RTs as a climbing hitch, that remains to be tested.
In a small test on a static rope in the backyard I felt that the coils closest to the standing ends did most of the work and that without dressing (fiddling) multiple times the rest was along-for-the-ride, so to speak. The load being me.

I personally would rather have a difficult to release hitch for climbing than one that is fiddly, where it can be released too easily. I've never had a situation where I could not release the ones I use.
Just my preference to remain stopped with little regard to accidentally bumping the top coils and going for a slide.
A sad occurrence with some climbers is that they grab the rope over the hitch to slow themselves when sliding and compound the situation to the negative as their hand keeps the grip from gripping.

Also it has been my experience with hitches like this, the crossed coils, that too little angle of the crossings Or too much angle is detrimental to its grip. This is all very subjective to the material being used. And the expertise of the user!

SS

xarax

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 10:09:52 PM »
for holding a larger rope and then hopefully be released easily,

Nooope! On both counts...

   1. I have tried the RT stopper repeatedly with ropes of equal diameter, and it holds better than any gripping hitch around a tensioned rope I have used.  Do not see it as it shown when it is used on the mooring lines... see it as a hitch around a tensioned main line of the same diameter. I know that I have to say it again and again, because it is hard to believe that such a simple mechanism works as well as it does, yet it is not known within the knot tyers or climbers word... and that is exactly what I am doing... :)
   2. It is released far more easily than any friction hitch, just by moving it "upwards". When the angle between the crossed strands and the main line becomes larger, the gripping power disappears, and the hitch is released immediately ! Try it. After it is in a steady, gripping position, just push it upwards a little, shorten it, and you will see this effect.

As for using it, the RTs as a climbing hitch, that remains to be tested.

I promise I will not test it as a climbing hitch, or, even better, I swear I will not test it as a climbing hitch... :) ( I have thought of it only as a temporary, emergency stopper. )

without dressing (fiddling) multiple times

On 1/2" nylon kernmantle, 4 pairs, or at most 5 pairs of crossing coils are enough, if you also use an interlinked-hitches ending. Unless you are sooo much heavier than me... :)

accidentally bumping the top coils and going for a slide.

This can not happen with the rat-tail stopper I think, because the hitch is automatically elongated again, in no time . It might be a danger with the climbing friction hitches, but not with the rat-tail stopper. That is one of the MAIN reasons I like this hitch. It grips very easily, without having to be pulled by a sudden pull of a great weight.

too little angle of the crossings Or too much angle is detrimental to its grip. This is all very subjective to the material being used. And the expertise of the user!

   Right ! THAT is the main "problem" with his hitch, I think. It might come out that the optimum angle of the crossed coils depends on the material, or the initial dressing, or the expertise of the tyer too much, i.e. that it is a hitch sensitive to too many parameters. That remains to be seen, and proven to be true or false.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 10:24:35 PM by xarax »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 07:05:49 AM »
   1. I have tried the RT stopper repeatedly with ropes of equal diameter,
and it holds better than any gripping hitch around a tensioned rope I have used.
Please understand that some of these other hitches
--notably, what I call the "ProhGrip" (aka "Blake's hitch")--
can hold through (rather high) rupture, not slipping.

Quote
2. It is released far more easily than any friction hitch, just by moving it "upwards".
When the angle between the crossed strands and the main line becomes larger,
the gripping power disappears, and the hitch is released immediately ! Try it.
After it is in a steady, gripping position, just push it upwards a little, shorten it, and you will see this effect.
At first this sounds like **loosening** the hitch;
how can one possibly push it "up" when it's under tension?
--except, as discussed below, pushing the away-from-load end
in which complete, uncontrolled slippage is predicted?

Quote
accidentally bumping the top coils and going for a slide.

This can not happen with the rat-tail stopper I think,
because the hitch is automatically elongated again, in no time .
It might be a danger with the climbing friction hitches, but not with the rat-tail stopper.

This is exactly what is warned about by Life on a Line --that the
D&T WILL SLIP uncontrollably if its grip is diminished in
this way.  And other "climbing hitches" are sometimes employed
where they must arrest a fall.


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xarax

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 11:55:10 AM »
please understand that some of these other hitches--notably, what I call the "ProhGrip" (aka "Blake's hitch")--can hold through (rather high) rupture, not slipping.

I do not doubt it. However, please understand that a 4 + 4 rat-tail stopper gripping with an interlinked-half-hitches ending is more secure than the Prohansa gripping hitch / Blake hitch.  :) ( As a gripping hitch, not as a climbing hitch ! ! ! ) This is my view, supported by the few amateur experiments I have made till now...However, you will need laboratory experiments to persuade me for the opposite - till then, I have placed my bet on the rat-tail stopper hitch !

Quote
2. It is released far more easily than any friction hitch, just by moving it "upwards".
When the angle between the crossed strands and the main line becomes larger,
the gripping power disappears, and the hitch is released immediately ! Try it.
After it is in a steady, gripping position, just push it upwards a little, shorten it, and you will see this effect.
At first this sounds like **loosening** the hitch;how can one possibly push it "up" when it's under tension?

Oou, oou ! Stop ! I have not said that it can be released when it is under tension ! I believe it can not, but I have not tested that ! It did not ever crossed my mind to do this ! Why a gripping hitch should be able to do this ? I believe none of the far inferior Ashley gripping hitches are able to do this either. Do not confuse the rat-tai stopper with a climbing hitch, PLEASE !

Quote
accidentally bumping the top coils and going for a slide.

This can not happen with the rat-tail stopper I think,because the hitch is automatically elongated again, in no time .
It might be a danger with the climbing friction hitches, but not with the rat-tail stopper.

This is exactly what is warned about by Life on a Line --that the
D&T WILL SLIP uncontrollably if its grip is diminished in
this way.  And other "climbing hitches" are sometimes employed
where they must arrest a fall.

AGAIN, I say that this is not a climbing hitch ! It is a gripping hitch, for Knot-Land s god sake ! It is gripping hitch that works fine when tied around tensioned lines of the same diameter ...and it is the best gripping hitch that I know and tested for such a purpose. ( longitudinal pull of the standing end(s)). I have tried all the Ashley s gripping hitches, AND THEN SOME, and have not found something so secure.
Please, people, do not demand from the rat-tail stopper qualities it is not meant to offer ! It is not designed to offer such things.( Like to be able to be released under tension, to hold after is already on a free fall, sliding alongside the main line, "arrest" a fall, etc. etc. )
It is not a climbing friction hitch. Please, read the first post of the thread "Best gripping hitch..." (1)

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2849.msg17046#msg17046


« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:04:29 PM by xarax »
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SS369

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Re: Machard Tresse friction hitch
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 03:54:07 PM »
I think we've gone off path here a ways.  The thread's title is about a knot used for ascending and abseiling backup, etc. , not for static rope arresting. We've got the other thread about the Rattail stopper for this.

The tresse style of friction hitches will have a following till one finds a better personal solution, mechanical or knotical.

SS