Author Topic: More new loop knots  (Read 5483 times)

alanleeknots

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More new loop knots
« on: January 04, 2012, 03:03:13 PM »
Hi everyone, I have few  new loop knots.  Please take a look at them and critique them.
Thanks   Alan Lee

xarax

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 05:55:28 PM »
   To my view, those loops are neither secure, nor bowlines...For a somehow similar, but much more secure bowline-like loop, see the two forms of the Consrictor bowline.
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xarax

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 03:35:26 AM »
    Hi Alan, here we come again...  :) First, I have to say that there are many people in this forum with a far greater knowledge and experience on bowlines than me... but they are a little reluctant to respond to "new" knots, so you have to insist, and be patient, I guess...  :) ( Well, that is what I am doing all the time ! ). AND - which is the most important thing - do not let yourself be disappointed by the occasional absence of the discussion any new knot deserves. Keep walking :)
   The first knot is not only too complex, it is also not even a bowline-like loop... :)  You tie an overhand knot on the standing part, then you pull two bights out of the overhand knot loop and you twist them, in order to form two additional nipping loops - then you pass the working end of the eye leg of the bight through the loop of the initial overhand knot AND through those two new nipping loops, before you tie the collar... Well, a quite long sequence of hand movements, with a final result that could have been achieved with a much more simple nipping structure. On top of all the excessive, unnecessary complexity, when you pull the tail out of this structure, you are still left with this annoying initial overhand knot that refuses to disappear- and you wonder why you have not tied one secure bowline-like loop in the first place... one of the the many secure bowline-like we already have, that offer a similar or even greater a safety, but consume less material and require fewer hand movements !
   The second loop is an interesting quite simple bowline, where all you do is to twist the end of the eye leg of the bight around the strand of the eye leg of the standing part. That simple trick connects the two legs together, so it alleviates the burden the collar and the nipping loop have to bear. However, it is difficult to set this knot in a tight final form, and, even if you somehow succeed in it, the two independent knot elements, the bowline structure and the additional twist of the two legs, will run the danger to be separated again sometime in the future. This will not affect the security of the whole structure, that is true, but will make the loop look like a two-parts compound knot , i.e. look like the loose initial knot you show, and not like the final tight one. I must admit that, personally, I do not like compound knots, and I will always prefer to tie one compact knot instead of two, the one after - or on top of - the other... Anyway, the solution of the second loop probably belongs - and might better be posted there - to the "simple lock for the bowline "  thread (1).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.0
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 04:31:55 AM »
Quote
they are a little reluctant to respond to "new" knots, so you have to insist, and be patient, I guess...

This one whom I know best is just a bit weary of the
multitudes of ways in which cordage can be entangled.
There needs to be some compelling reason to pursue
the understanding of the "new" knot.  In what has been
shown so far, I don't see it : they are more cumbersome
ways of forming eyeknots to what we know --esp. in re
bowline variations.

Actually, the last one above (2nd shown in post #3) is
--topologically-- a well-known bowline --viz., the so-called
water bowline ; but the arrangement/orientation of the
inner overhand crossing (to be left as that, rather than
capsized into a straight part and turn) is novel.  (It leads
me to muse about repeating this structure so as to form
a square knot and see what that might win for me.)

The other reminds me of my taking what I call a "double
Lapp bend (w/tail tucked)"
into an eye knot.

--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 08:36:20 AM »
the last one above is--topologically-- a well-known bowline --viz., the so-called
water bowline

   That may be precisely the reason it suffers from the same non-fatal disease, as the Water bowline does ; Mark Gommers writes at (1), p. 5, fig. 10 / fig.11 :
   "Under load, the two loops [i.e.,  "the the two independent knot elements, the bowline structure and the additional twist of the two legs" , as I have described them...] will separate, but the knot remains secure." That is,
 "the two independent knot elements ... will run the danger to be separated again sometime in the future. This will not affect the security of the whole structure, that is true, but will make the loop look like a two-parts compound knot , i.e. look like the loose initial knot you show, and not like the final tight one." Does the "Ice bowline", presented at 2. also suffer from the same inherited problem ?

1. http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/02_Bowlines.pdf
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1929
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 08:36:54 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 06:43:00 PM »
the last one above is--topologically-- a well-known bowline --viz., the so-called
water bowline

   That may be precisely the reason it suffers from the same non-fatal disease, as the Water bowline does ; Mark Gommers writes at (1), p. 5, fig. 10 / fig.11 :
   "Under load, the two loops [i.e.,  "the the two independent knot elements, the bowline structure and the additional twist of the two legs" , as I have described them...] will separate, but the knot remains secure."


And one should rightfully question "suffers ... disease":
maybe it's only the viewer who is ill at ease, here!
Historical illustrations of the water bowline do not present
it as though formed with a clove hitch --which to my
mind seems to be a more recent phenomenon (Budworth?),
but maybe I'm making an inaccurate survey here?!

But regardless of historical precedent, the (perhaps deserving
its own name!) "clove-hitch bowline" can be reasonably
secure-when-slack, and in-tension separation isn't so
much a concern.

--dl*
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xarax

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 07:19:49 PM »
...secure-when-slack...

  Secure as a machine, but ugly as an organism... To my view, a knot is meant to be one whole, contiguous entity, not a succession of utilitarian rope traps ! Anyway, let us accept this trick as a "lock", even if it is placed outside ( = before) the bowline s "door" (collar).( A slack knot is a knot that is not yet well dressed, or it is ready to be undressed, i.e. it is half naked. )
   





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Dan_Lehman

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 08:20:54 AM »
...secure-when-slack...

  Secure as a machine, but ugly as an organism... To my view,
... A slack knot is a knot that is not yet well dressed, or it is ready to be undressed, i.e. it is half naked. )

This finish hints that you misunderstand me :
what I mean is that the knot is secure even though
it isn't in tension of SPart -vs- eye (or end-vs.-end)
--say, lying on deck awaiting casting over some pile
or put into a hook.  So, that a clove-hitch bowline
(dressing of water bowline ) will show some space
between those turns when loaded need not make
us regret tying them if they serve to keep the knot intact
to the point of loading (and, upon slackening, return to
reasonable snug security).

E.g., I have seen that my so-called "End-Bound Double Bowline"
(EBDB)
will show space between the defining end-binding
wrap and the "double" turns that it's supposed to be binding(!),
when push comes to shove in nylon, and diameter is reduced
by force elongating the material --it takes some good anticipation
of this to set it very tightly, but likely that will fail in real materials
as a person's manual force will be so far less than that coming
from a use of "rope".  But the point of these extra securing
measures for the bowline is to hold the knot to the point
of loading.  (Yes, though, slick materials can need some
additional help during loading.)


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 05:29:45 PM by Dan_Lehman »

xarax

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Re: More new loop knots
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 01:53:58 PM »
   For nature in general, it is said that "horror vacui". Why we should be content with space  left unoccupied by material in between parts of a knot, space that separates this knot and makes it look like a compound knot, or indeed like two knots tied in proximity and succession ?
   I would except such stucture as an addtional  lock, but not as a part of the door ! Have a look at the - very interesting - "Lee s bowline", that you missed (1). There we have one tightly closed door, with no need for any lock whatsoever.

1)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3719.msg21544#msg21544
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 10:20:07 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.