Author Topic: New Knots - Please take a look  (Read 14115 times)

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
New Knots - Please take a look
« on: December 18, 2011, 01:08:07 AM »
Hi everyone,

My dad believes he's created some new useful knots.  Please take a look at them and critique them. 

The Male knot is the main new knot。 All other knots are expanded from the Male knot。 



















Thanks for looking!Any feedback from the experts would be appreciated about these knots!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 01:28:47 AM by eric22 »

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 02:36:15 AM »
I don't think I've seen this Male Loop Knot before, although it bears some superficial resemblance to some twisted-hole bowlines that have been discussed in this forum, though I think that relation ends there.

The overall practical performance seems solid.  I don't see any major security flaws.  It handles the legs pulling in opposite directions well enough.  It seems not to have issues with jamming at higher strains.  Related to that, the knot seems to carry itself loosely, which might prevent it from competing with some of the very high security loops when slack flogging goes on for some time.

The biggest challenge for this knot is going to be finding a method of tying that will be easy to execute and remember and will avoid errors.  That may come in time.  Checking the final product for errors may be difficult due to lack of symmetry or other highly distinctive features, but this may be made less relevant if a fail-safe method of tying is found.

Thanks for sharing.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 04:01:56 AM »
   All those knots belong to the bowline family of knots, but I do not think that they will be proved to be prominent members of it... Although the base knot starts well, with an interesting nipping structure in the place of the simple nipping loop of the common bowline, it ends poorly : the way the tail is secured at the very end, is obviously not adequate. I think that the creator of the knots sensed that, and tried to improve the situation by "beefing up" the structure, in the M1 and M2 variations of the base knots. However, I think that the final results, although much more secure than the original knots, are not worth the additional retuckings and the added complexity. The knots get very "expensive" in material consumption for what they offer. We have dozens of bowlines that offer much more security, with much less consumption of rope. If a knot is mediocre at the first place, it will not be a superb knot after some retuckings. It makes much more sense to start from an already good knot, and then retuck it to make it even better. The creator should search - and possibly discover - another, different path through the nipping structure, because, following by the presently chosen path, the tail can not be nipped and secured very firmly.
   It is a good thing that the creator chose to work using a TIB nipping structure, and a proper bowline collar. However, I think that the presently chosen path of the working end through this structure is not delivering the security one would have expected from such a complex bowline-like loop.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 11:50:14 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 12:45:16 AM »
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Well here are some additional photos regarding the male knot.

This is the male knot more secured:




« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 12:59:22 AM by eric22 »

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 06:41:22 AM »
  To my view - and with the material I have used to try those knots -, the bowline-like loop in the first picture of Reply#3, is the the simpler and the better  of all the others presented in this thread. ( For the time being, I had call it "Eric s bowline", just to distinguish it from the others). It is a very interesting and quite secure loop, based upon a "pretzel" shaped nipping loop. ( See (1), for some other similar attempts, based upon the same - simple but relatively unused - TIB nipping structure ). In the Eric s bowline the tail is not nipped in the way it is nipped in most bowlines, but rather in a way resembling the angler s loop : it is squeezed in between the other leg of the collar s bight, and a leg of one pretzel s bight. I believe that there it is nipped very effectively - but  I have not tested it with very slippery ropes and very heavy loads .Of course, for yet a more secure loop, the tail can be easily re-tucked once more, through one of the other two openings of the pretzel.
    In the loop shown in the second picture of the Reply#3, I do not like the path of the tail in its final tuck. It is not well nipped there. You better pass it underneath  the eye leg of the standing part, not above it, as you have it now. If you do that, the tail will be squeezed more effectively in between the first curve of the standing part - which will tend to pull it "higher", to the standing end - and the first curve of the eye leg of the standing part - which will tend to pull it "lower", to the tip of the loop.
   I do not like the loop based on the Chinese good luck knot, shown in the third picture of Reply#3 . I think this knot is not very stable in the first place, and loading the three out of the four ends does not make it better. It can capsize in unpredictable forms, depending upon the distribution of loads to each of the four "limbs".
   Another way one can proceed -when he has a "pretzel" as a TIB nipping structure - is shown in the attached pictures as "A series" and "B series". The eye leg of the bight penetrates the "pretzel" in a way that  helps it remain a compact, closed 3D curve. When we start from an A or a B knot , we can continue with a proper bowline collar, and then secure the tail by driving through the one or more openings of the pretzel that will nip it most effectively.
   
1)   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1940
This is not a knot.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 08:06:00 AM »
   The second Eric s Bowline ( "Lee s bowline") - modified a little bit - I was talking about in the previous post. On first sight, it looks like a fine, secure bowline-like loop to me - but I have not tested it yet.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 10:15:32 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 06:32:39 PM »
Thank you so much Xarax for taking the time to analyze the "Erics Bowline". 

My dad and I greatly appreciated any tests you attempt with this particular knot and all conclusions given in advance.  We are not experts on how to test whether or not this knot is effective as we think it is.

Once again thanks and we are eager to here any other comments or findings regarding this.  Also the modified version that you did post up looks terrific!

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 01:16:24 AM »
I'm a bit weary, now, so let me just give this citation
for reference :
igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=31bc38d4b3c94fafbad786adc258283d&topic=3024.0

--similar look & feel ...

But I remembered there being something similar
that was presented in red  cord; maybe it is this:
igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=baf867164bf57119c180517c8edccb88&topic=1914.0


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 01:28:41 AM by Dan_Lehman »

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 04:07:28 AM »
  Yes, the first "Eric s bowline" is identical to the loop presented at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2197.0
Very interesting informations about it at at ;
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2197.msg15466#msg15466

   The fact that a knot has been discussed or published somewhere, does not mean that it has been analyzed as throughly as it deserves...or that it has been tested, and proved to be inferior to others. It might well be the case that this loop had not attracted the attention it deserved, for various reasons that have nothing to do with its quality. So,I would suggest that this rather simple bowline is worth of further examination, and, if possible,  the author should test it with a variety of materials and loadings. Who knows ? It could well be proven to be a competitor to other, more complex forms of bowline.
   Let us wait and see if the second Eric s bowline, (in the modified or not form), would also appear in a previously published article.  :) With the additional tuck of the tail, it is a more complex loop than the first, so the probability it is a new knot, is higher !  :)
   
   

This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 08:13:53 PM »
   The fact that a knot has been discussed or published somewhere,
does not mean that it has been analyzed as throughly as it deserves...

This is a generally applicable statement about knotting !
E.g., where has anyone stated which of the asymmetric
*halves* (which SPart of the two) of a sheet bend usually
breaks (or if one does, vs. being roughly equal in frequencey)?!
--after how many centuries, ... ?!!
(Where an indication has been made : in joining two slings
of webbing/tape in what is crudely seen as a "square-knot"
geometry --noting that here all ends are loaded--, one sling
usually stays roughly straight in its bight-turn and the
other sort of *folds* around it --and is what breaks.)


Thanks for confirming the "similarity" of the prior knot;
I was too tired to work past the different flat-image looks.


--dl*
====

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 08:58:12 PM »
...where has anyone stated which of the asymmetric *halves* (which SPart of the two) of a sheet bend usually breaks --after how many centuries, ...

   
   I think we have reached the century this question will be answered... :) ( I hope I will be lucky to live one more year... :) I guess that, in just one year, one can test all the known bends  - and most of the known loop knots, too.
   My easy conjecture is that, although I have no clue which of the two links will break first,  the Sheet bend as a whole will break before the symmetric Sheet bend...but I guess one does not need a crystal ball to predict this.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 09:30:27 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2011, 09:21:06 PM »
Hi Eric, thank you for bringing us your fathers knots.

====================

Hi Alan, it is clear from the array of variants you have presented, that you are well versed in the creation of functional knots.  The second thing that strikes me is a reminder of the incredible divide between East and West when it comes to knot culture.  Asian countries have not only perfected the use of functional knots (my favourite example being the binding used for scaffold poles - absolutely utilitarian - minimalistic yet totally functional), but they don't stop there as functional knots are often fused with art  forms to produce artistic functionality - the Shamisen Neo springs to mind - many other far simpler knots would provide the functionality, but the Shamisen Neo adds art to that functionality.

Clearly, you are driven in your designs to follow this fusion of form and function.

However, I have to admit that, to my eye, simplicity is the greatest art form possible - to me, the simple hitch and the Chinese scaffold binding outshine all of the other fusion structures that struggle to perform the same function.

Most of your knots, I feel fall into this artistic 'fusion' category, all that is, but with one exception, and that is the one Xarax has rephotographed for us (thanks Xarax)



The binding is an end of line fixed loopknot {.EyeKnot} with two components arranged in a novel configuration.

The first component, made on the SP and shown by the orange rope, is a Carrick Component (CC), but it is not connected up in the manner most often used for this component.  In fact, it is almost left unconnected, and is only stabilised by the loop end leg (white rope).

The second component, made with the Working End and shown by the white rope, is a Simple Hitch Component (SHC), and is made to take the force of the loop end leg  into the SP.  The end is pinned firmly against part of the CC and the main loaded SP.  By itself this would be an adequate binding, but the finishing touch of taking the end out through the CC means that no matter which leg of the loop becomes loaded (ring loading), the end is gripped to give it the necessary anchor friction that is then amplified by the round turn about the SP.  This is a very simple, yet very effective security touch.

But the good design characteristics of this binding do not stop there.  Strength of this knot should be quite high.  This is because the entry point of the SP through the loaded SHC loop causes it to be bent out of line by ca 10 degrees, shedding some of the load into the SHC.  It then bends back in line and wraps around approximately four diameters of cord, before making a four diameter 360 degree rotation, and then a final one diameter  90 degree exit into the SP loop leg.  This significant exposure to lateral pressure allows frictional transfer of load over a significant (ca 17 diameters unloaded, ca 11 diameters loaded) length of rope, thereby eliminating the single point concentration transfer present in the weaker knots.

Finally, making the binding is easy and memorable.  Make a CC in the SP, thread the end through the CC loop, around the SP, under itself for the SHC nip, then into the CC eye for the ring loading protection.

All together Alan, a very nice knot and a novel way of configuring the CC that I would not have thought of using - thank you for bringing it to us.


Derek

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2011, 02:44:58 AM »
   Derek, that was a very nice explanation for the first bowline. I believe the second Eric s bowline, (with or without the minor cosmetic surgery I had attempted on it... :)) is also very interesting - and quite secure a loop, too. Have a look at its pictures at Reply#5.
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2011, 06:07:39 AM »
Hi, Xarax,Derex,Roo and all,

Thanks for the trust, first forgive my broken english,let me introduce my self, i am a crane operator have been running crane for 42yeay i do tie bowline for many many time, 9 year ago i brought a book The complete guide to knots and knot tying by Geoffrey. that all i know from this book. When you guys comment on you post, the terminology i do'nt know any of those.
anyway you guys give me alots of courage. i do have more loop knots i had create, just to be sefe and do'nt want to create the confusion. i like to check all the hight secure loop or bowline before i post it. i need some help where can i find all these loop.
Thanks for your valuable time,If you feel bore with knots you came and see  my crane work.  Happy New Year

http://www.youtube.com/alanleeknots

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: New Knots - Please take a look
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 02:02:46 PM »
Hi everyone。
Start from this chinese good luck knot, I discover all these knots,i use quick realease adjustable loop a lot as a tag line for lifting rebar and other things.and it really good when we lifting big bean or pipe the rigger up top do'nt have to deal with the tag line, the ground man can realease it.

I am not sure we have these kinds of knots already in the book or not.