Author Topic: Mid-Air Binders  (Read 12419 times)

xarax

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 04:47:58 PM »
  The mid-air binder shown in Reply#9 (1) and at the attached pictures, can also be described as a " Blackwall-hitch-tied-through-an-overhand-knot " ( and not through a hook, as the ABoK#1875 ). Ashley mentions that the Blackwall hitch " is never quite safe unless the rope is large enough to fill the mouth of the hook ". With an overhand knot, it is the "mouth" that shrinks  :), so the rope can not but fill it, however large or small it might be.

   1. During the set-up and dress phase, make sure you keep the (left link) tail adjacent and parallel to its standing end ( as shown in the first picture of Reply#9).
   2. If necessary, secure the binder further by one half hitch at the left link, or one half hitch at each link.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3656.msg21113#msg21113
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 04:50:13 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 09:06:50 PM »
A superior "mid-air binder" has been presented now in a couple
of threads, starting with my presentation here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.msg10281;topicseen#msg10281
Attached is a photo of the TurNip-in-Eye structure that I used in tensioning
some shelving frames (to hold in place while a metal X brace was installed).
This structure will give stronger nip in cases where the material cannot flow
around the object and tighten the TurNip so well.

... and repeated & reiterated here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.0

I just fiddled this in 2mm? PP kernmantle, which nicely holds
a 25# weight; and in 1/4" PP 3-strand rope, which holds but
which I can't further hoist/tension a 37# weight (one end of
the structure is girth-hitched to 'biner clipping weight, the
other runs around a 'biner at the top; I'm hauling downwards
trying to increase tension, but in vain).  YMMV.


--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2011, 12:18:42 AM »
   I think that we are talking about two quite different types of knots here ( but I am not sure I can explain what I mean...). At the end of the tightening phase, we can have one, more or less compact, knot nub, i.e. a proper bend - OR we can have two knots nubs, at some distance the one from the other, connected by their tails, that form a compound knot ( the tail of the one knot penetrating the nub of the other knot ), i.e. a proper binder. Some of the knots described at this thread belong to the first type ( for example, the knot described at Replies #9 and #15 ) and some to the second ( the Gleipnir and Gleipnir- like binders, the Trucker and Versatackle (single and double) binders, and the knots described at 1, 2 and 3 ). In both cases, at the end of the tightening phase, the two standing ends of the two links are brought close the one to the other by the pulling of the one or both tails. However,   
1 :  in the first case, the end result is one fixed knot, and the standing ends can not be brought closer any more, at this or at some other time later.
2 : in the second case, the tails can be pulled more, and the standing ends can be brought closer, even after the two tails are locked by the two knot nubs. In fact, in the second case the end result is a two-nub compound knot.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21229#msg21229
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.msg10074#msg10074
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17414#msg17414
This is not a knot.

knot4u

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 08:39:37 PM »
I would use the buntline hitch instead of three-four half hitches (suggested by xarax) to add more security and tension, but there's probably a greater risk for the buntline to jam.

A Buntline (ABOK #1711) is difficult to jam as a mid-air binder. I have a strong feeling we're not having a meeting of the minds. Pics may be necessary.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 10:13:43 PM by knot4u »

Urfin

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 10:35:40 PM »
  • Adjustable Grip Reversed

Hi, I've tried googling the "Adjustable Grip Reversed" knot, but this seems to be the only place it's mentioned. Since you mention it first, it must be interesting.  I've tried guessing in what sense it is "reversed" and this is what I came up with. Is this what you've meant?

Luca

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2012, 01:28:31 AM »
Hello Urfin,

I'm not sure, but I think it's the same difference between the Buntline hitch and the Two Half hitches: Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.(I do not know, maybe the knot that you show  still has some interesting features!)(and please excuse me for my bad English and explanation!)

                                                                                                           Bye!

knot4u

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 01:49:30 AM »
  • Adjustable Grip Reversed

Hi, I've tried googling the "Adjustable Grip Reversed" knot, but this seems to be the only place it's mentioned. Since you mention it first, it must be interesting.  I've tried guessing in what sense it is "reversed" and this is what I came up with. Is this what you've meant?

Yes, that's what I meant! Thank you for the pic I can put in my library. You can add a slip for an easy untie. Have you tested it as a mid-air binder?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:02:49 AM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2012, 02:56:25 AM »
Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.

Interesting, that's a new knot and different than what I meant.  With your knot, I anticipate a problem if the bind is really strong.  Also, that structure doesn't provide much leverage to cinch down strongly.  However, it may be suitable for lightweight jobs that don't require a strong cinch.  Have you tried it out?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:00:02 AM by knot4u »

kd8eeh

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2012, 03:24:24 AM »
firstly, could someone  show what exactly is a glempir knot?  i am not familiar.  secondly, i find that a constrictor knot often makes a perfectly fine mid air binder, because a constrictor requires two loops to be held close together yet slide opposite directions.  the knot will squeeze well and then will hold very well by friction with the surfaces it is touching, and also a constrictor knot when pulled taught enough will provide it's own simulated surface with the outer strand, assuming that the knot is under constant tension.  if not, they it may be very easily reenforced with a half knot, and that holds excelently.

roo

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 05:00:12 AM »
firstly, could someone  show what exactly is a glempir knot?  i am not familiar.
I've attached a picture below.  The Gleipnir is probably the most over-hyped tensioner on this board.  It uses a lot of rope to barely apply any tension, and usually only works in open air.  It loses tension or completely falls apart if it is loaded funny or otherwise tampered with. 

It's pathetic.
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knot4u

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 05:10:37 AM »

Gleipnir X

This version of the Gleipnir is quite useful.  I have about 10 bundles of different stuff around my house bound together with a Gleipnir X in 550 paracord, jute twine, or nylon string.

This version below has a bit more cinch.  It's the same concept but with an added nipping turn.


Gleipnir X Double
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 05:58:55 AM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 04:29:15 PM »
This version below has a bit more cinch.  It's the same concept but with an added nipping turn.

   I think that this picture is not as informative as it could be. It does not show very clearly the "twist" of the tails inside the "tube" made by the three nipping loops. For the single as well as the double hitch to work at 100% of their potential, the tails inside the tube should be in an "elbow" configuration (ABoK#35) - i.e., the shape of their paths inside the knot s nub should be that of a double helix. However, a helix has a "helicity", so there are two possible double helices. The picture at the previous post shows ( not very clearly...) the one, the picture at the present post shows the other.
    I tried to describe, verbally, how differently the double version can be tied, but I failed - and the only thing left was to show a picture, of the "other" way the tails can form the "other" double helix. When tied around a pole, the "tube" has a certain inclination to the axis of the pole, so the two ways are different from each other - and I believe this "other" way - the way shown at the attached picture of the present post - leads to tighter knots than the way shown at the picture of the previous post. The way we can see which way is which  :) :), is to watch the ends of the tails : If they pass over the continuations of the tails before they enter the "tube" of the triple nipping loop, it is the one way - if it passes under them, it is the "other" way. If in the one it can be considered that the tails make a clock-wise turn, in the other they make a counter-clockwise turn, and vice versa.
   It might be interesting to mention that the double hitch is identical to a triple Strangle hitch, where the middle round turn has not gone around the pole, but it has been left to shrink around the knot itself. (1)
   I believe that this hitch is probably the most under-estimated tensioner of this board, and one of the best adjustable binders we have. It is superb ( an antonym to "pathetic"). To go beyond this hitch, one would need to use the mechanical advantage offered by some other, more complex hitches - but this is another subject. On the subject of this thread, I wish to say that I believe it remains open : there might well be other binders that would be equally good, and even better, than the ones we know.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.msg19045#msg19045
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 05:46:46 PM by X1 »

Luca

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 04:57:33 PM »
Hi knot4u,

Hello Urfin,

I'm not sure, but I think it's the same difference between the Buntline hitch and the Two Half hitches: Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.(I do not know, maybe the knot that you show  still has some interesting features!)(and please excuse me for my bad English and explanation!)

                                                                                                           Bye!

OK .. he he .. I just got it all wrong! Apart from that"manipulating"the Buntline in both of these ways i described are obtained,however,two identical Two Half hitches,I would have appropriately to wait the answer by you,that you are the original poster,instead I was to answer to Urfin,also misinterpreting your meaning about the Adjustable Grip Reversed.Please excuse me for this!


Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.

Interesting, that's a new knot and different than what I meant.  With your knot, I anticipate a problem if the bind is really strong.  Also, that structure doesn't provide much leverage to cinch down strongly.  However, it may be suitable for lightweight jobs that don't require a strong cinch.  Have you tried it out?

My impression is that as an experimenter of practical knots in the field, I'm worth a thousandth of what you're worth;what I did was to roll up together a pair of thick winter socks in order to obtain a cylinder about 10 cm in diameter, and then I tried the two hitches around it using a 2.5 mm polyester rope:about the Adjustable Grip reversed I personally noticed some little similarity in behavior with what I had tried to describe here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3937.msg23663#msg23663

The difference is that it seems to me that the AGR actually  performs much better his job with respect to binding and gripping,compared to what I proposed there,and also has a good zip tie behavior.
About the other reversal of the standard Adjustable Grip(what I thought was the one which you meant) I liked it because it seems to me that it remains very stable when working, and also has the feature that the binding loop widens by pulling on the tail after the work(if this has not been too heavy,I think!);seemed to me also that holds very well,but I do not have many means nor experience to thoroughly test these aspects.
Eventually,If by this mistake at the end came out a knot which could be of some little interest,okay then,so be it!

                                                                                                       Bye!

knot4u

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 09:28:34 PM »
...i find that a constrictor knot often makes a perfectly fine mid air binder, because a constrictor requires two loops to be held close together yet slide opposite directions.  the knot will squeeze well and then will hold very well by friction with the surfaces it is touching, and also a constrictor knot when pulled taught enough will provide it's own simulated surface with the outer strand, assuming that the knot is under constant tension.  if not, they it may be very easily reenforced with a half knot, and that holds excelently.

After further testing, I'm giving both the Constrictor and the Strangle thumbs down as mid-air binders.  They don't skew the standing end as it passes through the loops.  The skewing is critical for a mid-air binder.  Simply squeezing the standing end is not enough.  Consider the Gleipnir for example.  The standing end(s) naturally stay dressed in a skewed manner when you're all done tightening.  The same is true for other knots I mentioned in the original post.  The skewed portion adds friction and thereby keeps the knot more secure.

Perhaps adding a Half Hitch helps as you said, but then we're making the knot two complex for what it's worth.  I'd rather go with one of the other knots at that point.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 07:00:26 AM by knot4u »

Urfin

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Re: Mid-Air Binders
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2012, 02:16:01 AM »
I've played a bit with the Adjustable Grip Reversed a bit and I'm rapidly becoming a fan! The knot seems to simply do just what I need of it: slide or hold just when I want. I've also checked out Luca's variation. I'm trying these knots in several small sizes of kernmantle (6mm down to 2mm accessory cord). Just to make sure we are talking about the same knots and I'm not confusing them, I'm attaching the photos:
1. Adjustable Grip original
2. Adjustable Grip Reversed
3. Adjustable Grip - Luca's Variation

It seems that variation (3) when used as a binder holds less strongly than reversal (2) (AGR). It seems not to like the almost-180-degree angle. Then I tried to apply knot4u's reversal (as in (2)) to Luca's variation (3) with the result of
4. Adjustable Grip - Luca's Variation Reversed
This one seems to function better as a binder, probably closer to (2)'s strength. On the other hand (3) performs better when used with an acute angle between the loop's legs, more like the original Adjustable loop